From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11955 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2023 20:55:14 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Jan 2023 20:55:14 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD86424EB; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 06:54:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f182.google.com (mail-vk1-f182.google.com [209.85.221.182]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9B43423AD for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 06:54:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f182.google.com with SMTP id z190so13100259vka.4 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 12:54:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=EO2wZTAFf+fZyI9StguuCDpUG7lOhRcgSo5RNxDftoY=; b=ep1Jf022b062+53ByFF7hPSowaEfUtGJrVlPnWzsa6TGXlP6g3L5kEWUPOGU8gm0+x v4EmqJRJga1UQ8hNXECDxJfkRqiin0VfJ+f69TPZbYlwUI4FGZh6yfpqWbdwCcnBDbat 4nC5g5Y8hjr02o+eZUWy7Az4aiO567pJ7GfpM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=EO2wZTAFf+fZyI9StguuCDpUG7lOhRcgSo5RNxDftoY=; b=ArHjTKscHfy+RoJHf+2Ia5eiSAnEusqfAEG8whiZdbUAlZ/iWZh6YPq7ZHL3Jymhif rlLTqolOXKU/by5Hh0g798EVLdpqDN4Aioa4DVPJotU3+1YG1KfpRvknWUredKyzeHpO d6UB3sLe9Jj8rOaaSx5ZiaxRZExM4Fgjezrxl/3Df7ZnOGGPnN3Pwb9uWgHRC6+oeIeb mi3S4zR37cNDDlKKuQ3/dxGkeAJ9x6qiYgU69OyD/4tpBMkfNuf5xRf7BlQPlarcc4sz kB2OQSLuQTFaDRbZzlgUkF6idXIazHWUY0HjcFPNRbNEEK97MHQ9Xz50ZTa5gatUzDUy /JwA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kpE1nlItiaQHIAXyoWi9W4hr/Uu0/o+QAKjNXCcCeDbIA5+XQdq AWuroXtTA24PHj+YSNtox/xVQ2mJb3DVTHadBKRmSQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXte/fkYLParvKE1a1S78x0GkUxazknczF0R5fB78Hr9jr/1VQlIYiInQTALfoyCFnklhFLfW9Zs4e51rzgGMlY= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:c947:0:b0:3d3:41c:f82 with SMTP id z68-20020a1fc947000000b003d3041c0f82mr4805943vkf.1.1672865626726; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 12:53:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <371F8C4D-AAAC-4CD9-9547-3A7AC0C961D0@atvetsystems.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 15:53:20 -0500 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000703aac05f17661ac" Message-ID-Hash: QWLVMGMV225JET7X6NNSHRQJU33HYCMH X-Message-ID-Hash: QWLVMGMV225JET7X6NNSHRQJU33HYCMH X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , rob@atvetsystems.com, The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: AT&T UNIX PC (7300) Teardown and Restoration List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000703aac05f17661ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One more thing ... to be fair to Warner: I believe that adding the F/M version of this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082VM3SJG should create the traditional electro-mechanical version of a true RS-232C with the board he suggested (and like him I have a few boxes of these things in my basement). I just used Amazon for reference, they used to be sold by most computer stores. =E1=90=A7 =E1=90=A7 On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 3:48 PM Clem Cole wrote: > Matt - send me an email offline if you need more help. Warner speaks th= e > truth - although he left out some wizardry that has sadly been lost for > ages. > > The first board he offers will create the interface that an IBM PC/AT > created which was originally not a standard either (eventually EIA back f= it > it, in RS 232-E IIRC, but RS-232 C which is what the UNIX PC's interface > was defined does not use it]. > > From your email, it looks like AT&T out a standard Data Terminal Equipmen= t > (DTE) pinning on the back of that system (which would make sense). That > means it should be a >>male<< 25 PIN (i.e. male) D style 'B-sized' > connector with pins 2 (TX), 4 (RTS), 20 (DTR) being driven; and pins 3 > (RX), 5 (CTS), 6 (DSR), 8( DCD), 22 (RI) as inputs. With Pin 7 being the > signal reference ground and Pin 1 being the frame ground (often N/C - but > do not short to 7 on your board) > > The signals should swing from +3 volts to up to +30 when assert as a > spacing time, and -3 to -30 volts marking time. However, anything over += /- > 15 volts is unusual, but the interface is required to accept it. > Frankly, +/- 9 volts is most likely what you will see with the 1488/1489 > driver pairs which were the preferred chips used in those days. > > Amazon does not seem to sell an equiv that spits out real RS-232C using > the D connector, but rather this PC/AT variant, so you will need to make = a > cable -- the good news is they do sell: > https://www.amazon.com/Kentek-Female-Serial-RS-232-Adapter/dp/B07KVFM4MS > > My suggestion would be to use this on you Mac/WIndows or Linux box: > > https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Converter-Prolific-Chipset-CB-DB9P/dp/B00I= DSM6BW > connect it to the cable I just mentioned -- at that point your > Mac/Windows/Linux Box will look like a Proper 'terminal' as the being > expected then if needed > > > a 25 pin null modem between it that the 3B1 such as: > https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-DB25-Null-Modem-Adaptor/dp/B001VL8RK2 or > whatever one you need M/M, M/F -- etc... > > > > On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 7:58 PM Warner Losh wrote: > >> >> https://www.amazon.com/NOYITO-Module-Conversion-Arduino-communicates/dp/= B07BJJ1T5G >> >> is my go-to for when I need a simple one, though something like >> >> >> https://www.amazon.com/NOYITO-Module-Conversion-Arduino-communicates/dp/= B07BJJ3TZR >> >> might work better for your setup if you just have more of the TTL gear >> than RS-232 gear (I have way too many old RS-232 cables because I never >> know when I'll need them again...) >> >> Warner >> >> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 5:46 PM segaloco wrote: >> >>> Nope, unfortunately I only know as much as is needed to plug into the >>> GPIO RX/TX/GND working on single boards. I wouldn't be surprised if my >>> assumption I just run these pins into the D-25 in the right holes is >>> bunk...but that's how we learn sometimes. Once I move I should be able = to >>> setup a proper work bench where I can tinker on this sort of thing more >>> intentionally rather than haphazardly. So perhaps a silly question for = an >>> expert but a valid one for me. I'll chase that angle and see if it bear= s >>> fruit. >>> >>> - Matt G. >>> ------- Original Message ------- >>> On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 4:40 PM, Warner Losh >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023, 5:30 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: >>> >>>> I'd love to get my hands on a 3B2 someday, this'll be cool if I can ge= t >>>> it going but that'd be a much more robust machine. >>>> >>>> I'm starting to suspect if there isn't any sort of boot ROM that spits >>>> out commentary on the UART and that doesn't get flexed until UNIX is u= p, I >>>> may not be able to get very far. I referred to >>>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/att/3b1/999-809-010IS_UNIX_PC_R= emote_Access_1986.pdf >>>> for the serial settings and it appears: >>>> >>>> 9600 baud, 1 stop bit, no parity, 8 data bits >>>> >>>> And the relevant pins >>>> >>>> Pin 1 - GND >>>> Pin 2 - RX >>>> Pin 3 - TX >>>> Pin 4 - RTS >>>> Pin 5 - CTS >>>> Pin 6 - DSR >>>> Pin 7 - GND >>>> Pin 8 - DCD >>>> Pin 20 - DTR >>>> >>>> So I've plugged my USB-TTY GND/RX/TX into the relevant pins and setup >>>> the necessary tty settings. The manual then suggests if running null m= odem >>>> mode to short pin 4 to 5 and then pins 6, 8, and 20 together, presumab= ly >>>> omitting any need for modem signalling from the remote machine, doing = basic >>>> serial RX/TX. Unfortunately even with all of this bypassing I get noth= ing >>>> out of the RS-232 port. What I don't know is if I could even expect >>>> something or if this is unlikely to bear fruit whether the hardware wo= rks >>>> or not. In any case, if I do get this thing running I'll have a writeu= p for >>>> folks afterwards. If not, then hopefully I can figure out something us= eful >>>> to do with this thing rather than junking it. >>>> >>> >>> Silly question... did you level shift to RS 232 levels? You likely >>> did... but if not... >>> >>> Warner >>> >>> - Matt G. >>>> ------- Original Message ------- >>>> On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 3:53 PM, rob@atvetsystems.com < >>>> rob@atvetsystems.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Matt, >>>> >>>> I=E2=80=99ve got one of these in my garage. I bought it about twenty y= ears ago >>>> as a working system but when I got it home I noticed that the hard dis= k >>>> wasn=E2=80=99t connected but at some point I=E2=80=99d like to get it = and my 3b2/300 >>>> working. >>>> >>>> Regards, Rob. >>>> >>>> On 3 Jan 2023, at 23:27, segaloco via TUHS wrote: >>>> >>>> And here are some pictures of the guts. >>>> >>>> https://imgur.com/a/E1ioxZl >>>> >>>> Various bits inside date this to late 1985. The good news is it at >>>> least turns on, but that's about as far as I've gotten with it. The di= splay >>>> never turns on, nor do I hear any sounds indicating it tries to start = the >>>> CRT. The fans kick on and there it stays until I turn it off. I plugge= d in >>>> a USB-TTY to pins 2, 3, and 7 (RX/TX/GND) and listened at 9600 baud 8 = bit 1 >>>> stop no parity and got nothing. Swapped the RX/TX, still nothing. Of >>>> course, that's all predicated on the assumption there's something ther= e to >>>> even interact with. I have little faith that whatever UNIX install was= on >>>> this is extant. Additionally, it didn't come with a keyboard, so if th= ere >>>> was some futzing with key combos that would trigger some sort of UART = over >>>> those lines, I can't do that. I wonder if there are some contacts insi= de I >>>> can just poll for activity with this serial connector, not sure how sa= fe >>>> that is... >>>> >>>> Anywho, the CPU has a bit of corrosion on the surface, not sure how >>>> that bodes for the innards, but this is in kinda rough shape either wa= y. I >>>> hope I can salvage it but if not, I'm going to at least do some study = on >>>> the CRT particulars and see if I can extract and keep the monitor from= it, >>>> been wanting a smaller CRT to have around for a while. >>>> >>>> - Matt G. >>>> ------- Original Message ------- >>>> On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 12:20 PM, segaloco via TUHS < >>>> tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Good day everyone, just starting a thread for yet another project I'll >>>> be tinkering on over time. Picked up a (presumably broken/untested) 73= 00 >>>> off eBay to at the very least tear down and get some good pictures of = and, >>>> with some luck, perhaps get working again. >>>> >>>> https://imgur.com/a/CExzebl >>>> >>>> Here are some pictures of the exterior for starters. I'll update this >>>> thread when I've got pictures of the guts and also with any info I can >>>> glean regarding whether this might be salvageable. The rust on the bac= k is >>>> pretty nasty but I've seen older/worse start up just fine. >>>> >>>> - Matt G. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> --000000000000703aac05f17661ac Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One more thing ... to be fair to Warner: I believe that= adding the F/M version of this:=C2=A0https://www.amazon.co= m/dp/B082VM3SJG
should create the traditional electro-mechanica= l version of a true RS-232C with the board he suggested=C2=A0(and like him = I have a few boxes of these things in my basement).=C2=A0 I just used Amazo= n for reference, they used to be sold by most computer stores.
3D""=E1= =90=A7
3D""=E1=90=A7

On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 3:48 PM= Clem Cole <clemc@ccc= .com> wrote:
Matt - send me an email offline if you need more he= lp.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Warner speaks the truth - although he left out some wizardr= y=C2=A0that has sadly been lost for ages.

The first bo= ard he offers will create the interface that an IBM PC/AT created which was= originally not a standard either (eventually EIA back fit it, in RS 232-E = IIRC, but RS-232 C which is what the UNIX PC's interface was defined do= es not use it].

From your email, it looks like AT&= T out a standard Data Terminal Equipment (DTE) pinning on the back of that = system (which would make sense). That means it should be a >>male<= < 25 PIN (i.e. male) D style 'B-sized' connector with pins 2 (TX= ), 4 (RTS), 20 (DTR) being driven; and pins 3 (RX), 5 (CTS), 6 (DSR), 8( DC= D), 22 (RI) as inputs.=C2=A0 With Pin 7 being the signal reference ground a= nd Pin 1 being the frame ground=C2=A0(often N/C - but do not short to 7 on = your board)

The=C2=A0signals should swing from=C2=A0+3= volts to up to=C2=A0+30 when assert as a spacing time, and=C2=A0 -3 to -30= volts marking time. However, anything=C2=A0over=C2=A0+/- 15 volts is unusu= al, but the interface is required to accept it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Frankly,=C2=A0+= /- 9 volts is most likely what you will see with the 1488/1489 driver pairs= which were the preferred chips used in those days.=C2=A0=C2=A0
Amazon=C2=A0does not seem to sell an equiv that spits out real RS= -232C using the D connector, but rather this PC/AT variant, so you will nee= d to make a cable -- the good news is they do sell:=C2=A0https://www.amazon.com/Kentek-Female-Serial-RS-232-Adapter/dp/B= 07KVFM4MS

My suggestion would be to use this on yo= u Mac/WIndows or Linux box:
http= s://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Converter-Prolific-Chipset-CB-DB9P/dp/B00IDSM6BW=
connect it to the cable I just mentioned -- at that point your= Mac/Windows/Linux Box will look like a Proper 'terminal' as the be= ing expected then if needed


a 25 pin=C2= =A0 null modem between it that the 3B1 such as:=C2=A0https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-DB25-Null-Modem-Adaptor/dp/B001VL8RK2<= /a> or whatever one you need M/M, M/F -- etc...



On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 7:58 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
https://www.amazon.com/NOYITO-Module-Conversion-Ardui= no-communicates/dp/B07BJJ1T5G

is my go-to for when I= need a simple one, though something like


mig= ht work better for your setup if you just have more of the TTL gear than RS= -232 gear (I have way too many old RS-232 cables because I never know when = I'll need them again...)

Warner
On Tue, J= an 3, 2023 at 5:46 PM segaloco <segaloco@protonmail.com> wrote:
Nope, unfortunately I only know as much a= s is needed to plug into the GPIO RX/TX/GND working on single boards. I wou= ldn't be surprised if my assumption I just run these pins into the D-25= in the right holes is bunk...but that's how we learn sometimes. Once I= move I should be able to setup a proper work bench where I can tinker on t= his sort of thing more intentionally rather than haphazardly. So perhaps a = silly question for an expert but a valid one for me. I'll chase that an= gle and see if it bears fruit.

- Matt G.
------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 4:40 PM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:<= br>


On Tue, Jan 3, 2023, 5:30 PM segaloco via = TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
I'd love to get my hands on a 3= B2 someday, this'll be cool if I can get it going but that'd be a m= uch more robust machine.

I'm starting to suspect if there isn't any sort= of boot ROM that spits out commentary on the UART and that doesn't get= flexed until UNIX is up, I may not be able to get very far. I referred to = http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/att/3b1/999-809-010IS= _UNIX_PC_Remote_Access_1986.pdf for the serial settings and it a= ppears:

9600 baud, 1 stop bit, no parity, 8 data bits

And the relevant pins
=

=
Pin 1 - GN= D
Pin= 2 - RX
Pin 3 - TX
Pin 4 - RTS
Pin 5 - CTS
Pin 6 - DSR
Pin 7 - GND
Pin 8 - DCD
Pin 20 - DTR

So I've plugged my = USB-TTY GND/RX/TX into the relevant pins and setup the necessary tty settin= gs. The manual then suggests if running null modem mode to short pin 4 to 5= and then pins 6, 8, and 20 together, presumably omitting any need for mode= m signalling from the remote machine, doing basic serial RX/TX. Unfortunate= ly even with all of this bypassing I get nothing out of the RS-232 port. Wh= at I don't know is if I could even expect something or if this is unlik= ely to bear fruit whether the hardware works or not. In any case, if I do g= et this thing running I'll have a writeup for folks afterwards. If not,= then hopefully I can figure out something useful to do with this thing rat= her than junking it.

Silly question... did you level shift to RS 232 level= s? You likely did... but if not...

Warner

- Matt G.
=
------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 3:53 PM, rob@a= tvetsystems.com <rob@atvetsystems.com> wr= ote:

Hello Matt,

I=E2=80=99ve got one of these in= my garage. I bought it about twenty years ago as a working system but when= I got it home I noticed that the hard disk wasn=E2=80=99t connected but at= some point I=E2=80=99d like to get it and my 3b2/300 working.

=
Regards, Rob.

On 3 = Jan 2023, at 23:27, segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org>= ; wrote:

And here are some pictures of the guts.


Various bits ins= ide date this to late 1985. The good news is it at least turns on, but that= 's about as far as I've gotten with it. The display never turns on,= nor do I hear any sounds indicating it tries to start the CRT. The fans ki= ck on and there it stays until I turn it off. I plugged in a USB-TTY to pin= s 2, 3, and 7 (RX/TX/GND) and listened at 9600 baud 8 bit 1 stop no parity = and got nothing. Swapped the RX/TX, still nothing. Of course, that's al= l predicated on the assumption there's something there to even interact= with. I have little faith that whatever UNIX install was on this is extant= . Additionally, it didn't come with a keyboard, so if there was some fu= tzing with key combos that would trigger some sort of UART over those lines= , I can't do that. I wonder if there are some contacts inside I can jus= t poll for activity with this serial connector, not sure how safe that is..= .

Anywho, the CPU has a bit of corrosio= n on the surface, not sure how that bodes for the innards, but this is in k= inda rough shape either way. I hope I can salvage it but if not, I'm go= ing to at least do some study on the CRT particulars and see if I can extra= ct and keep the monitor from it, been wanting a smaller CRT to have around = for a while.

- Matt G.
------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 12:20 PM, segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

Good day everyone, just starting a thread for yet another = project I'll be tinkering on over time. Picked up a (presumably broken/= untested) 7300 off eBay to at the very least tear down and get some good pi= ctures of and, with some luck, perhaps get working again.





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