From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 12060 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2021 17:00:00 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 19 Jun 2021 17:00:00 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id AB6339C1A9; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 02:59:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C741F9C093; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 02:59:35 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="cEM2DMIu"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 77FB49C093; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 02:59:33 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f174.google.com (mail-qk1-f174.google.com [209.85.222.174]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C37299BD16 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 02:59:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f174.google.com with SMTP id 3so9598742qks.8 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 2021 09:59:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5ieoiyQkvvDUsG+otoe+mQduD9VpiR74TN8PF37CkYI=; b=cEM2DMIueQWEzXVLDM65yEQerwKR6LpPL3/8VxJ4BLtQHIhIyXWQuJrdd9CivX6VeG /E7ebG63JoPQ0VapN7bvbxHUsi1FY70NHyh9RkF1ixAqpkGvVECSv2pbJK9g/2+w4sNj UN56qqxC6eyMjLPxNogIvlwjk1IxGTYnNxrsg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5ieoiyQkvvDUsG+otoe+mQduD9VpiR74TN8PF37CkYI=; b=r1/OppNOwq9nzxPixnk5nILQOhmEqHL1jOg4yc6LYXEYxGBDGAnxpnvE0qa/SD1ZQr XVJ1CPRmj5kZgub8kc7SxkUg4ZKAvbrB1dfdnnXr/x5M+W9NHvvFgQ05hgRFBCuuHTtA ybOJLuNgDmech7QITf1TGPlGBg3zpwhhvDfpIQoZWz96mscFVVNKvtxzWW+ZE2y3OyIP 2dzHQIm/B+MqW6flltYZ+0l4OI2D/7SIf0tb5RQTWCVB8gIDBt8RqWjiEuqizuOO0rnl tXUvEoukl8wQrkB2tLw/rJdjpvoxAhD9XCOEkHfOkRlLZZEIbXQjfNWByjNWWctYSSii 7TVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530jX1lSp9tYE2kCZNhEnq27Gdo4SZqYIGQ4S0MzfS/muSl2kjpc hEcbP9Itvhg0g9I5M3zQjEuYlyixi3CcB5AIdtcOng== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzNyokbRhsoPl1p7ZvI9mDNLY6K/4p0Jt8k5o8WLzB23tK/VpyzhZuULLv9LwulSLO8iUnONfCAOdKK5SQ58VE= X-Received: by 2002:a37:9306:: with SMTP id v6mr4058607qkd.476.1624121971750; Sat, 19 Jun 2021 09:59:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 12:59:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: Henry Bent Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000032d19605c5215d91" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Disassemblers X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000032d19605c5215d91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 12:33 PM Henry Bent wrote: > Wait, so it was easier to write an emulator for a PDP-10 binary than it > would have been to port BLISS to the PDP-11? Given the different word > sizes I would not have expected that. > BLISS-11 was (way) too big to run in the 64K address of the PDP-11 (even separated I/D). Originally, it was a PDP-10 cross compiler and later moved to the Vax. It generated much better code than the original Ritchie or later Johnson compilers. The code generator/optimizer was famous (literally the book on code optimization was written about it, called of course: "The Design of an Optimizing Compiler" by Wulf and some of his students [ISBN 0444001581] - *a.k.a.* 'The Green Book' worth reading BTW. Later on, DEC's TLG tried at least twice that I know of to make it self-hosting but gave up. Long story (and definitely a different thread) if DEC has not screwed up the marketing of BLISS, I suspect it might have given C a run for the money. But BLISS *vs*. C is a great example of Cole's law that *Simple Economics always beats Sophisticated Architecture* [and using Christensen's 'disruptive theory -- it gets better and supplants the incombent]. Anyway, the compiler/code generator/linker for DEC Fortran-IV for RT-11, RSX, and DOS-11 was written in BLISS-11. So for CU to retarget it for V6 they needed a PDP-10, which they did not have. So they wrote a simulator. I remember when they gave a talk about it at Usenix, somebody asked them how well Tenex ran on it. > Did they have a cover sheet or something equivalent that they came with? > I'm having trouble imagining dealing with that much unindexed data on an > early system. > Not to my knowledge. Two things that I believe we need to do for the TUHS archives to be even more meaningful is 1.) decode them from tp/ar -- even if you read the tape, they are packed together in v5/v6 ar files which are PDP-11 binary. 2.) Create an index of what is there. I've thought about both things but have way too much on my plate to do it myself. > Fascinating. Thank you as always for the insight. > Most welcome. Clem =E1=90=A7 --00000000000032d19605c5215d91 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On S= at, Jun 19, 2021 at 12:33 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:
<= font color=3D"#ff0000">Wait, so it was easier to write an emulator for a PD= P-10 binary than it would have been to port BLISS to the PDP-11?=C2=A0 Give= n the different word sizes I would not have expected that.
=
BLISS-11 was (way) too = big to run in the 64K address of the PDP-11 (even separated I/D).=C2=A0 Ori= ginally, it=C2=A0was a PDP-10 cross compiler and later moved to the Vax.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0It generated much better code than the original Ritchie or later = Johnson compilers.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The code generator/optimizer=C2= =A0was famous (literally the book on code optimization was written about it= , called of course: "The Design of an Optimizing Compil= er" =C2=A0by Wulf and some of his students [ISBN=C2=A00444001581] - a.k.a. 'The Green Book' worth rea= ding BTW.

Later on, DEC's TLG tried at least twice that I know of to mak= e it self-hosting but gave up. Long story (and definitely a different threa= d) if DEC has not screwed up the marketing of BLISS, I suspect it might hav= e given C a run for the money.=C2=A0 But BLISS vs. C is a great exam= ple of Cole's law that Simple Economics always beats Sophisticate= d Architecture [and using Christensen's 'disruptive theory = -- it gets better and supplants the incombent].
<= div>
Anyway, the compiler/code ge= nerator/linker for DEC Fortran-IV for RT-11, RSX, and DOS-11 was written in= BLISS-11.=C2=A0 So for CU to retarget it for V6 they needed a PDP-10, whic= h they did not have.=C2=A0 So they wrote a simulator.=C2=A0 I remember when= they gave a talk about it at Usenix, somebody asked them how well Tenex ra= n on it.



=

Did t= hey have a cover sheet or something equivalent that they came with?=C2=A0 I= 'm having trouble imagining dealing with that much unindexed data on an= early system.
Not to my=C2=A0knowledge.=C2=A0 Two things that I believe we need to= do for the TUHS archives to be even more meaningful is 1.) decode them fro= m tp/ar -- even if you read the tape, they are packed together in v5/v6 ar = files which are PDP-11 binary.=C2=A0 2.) Create an index of what is there.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0

I've thought about bo= th things but have way too much on my plate to do it myself.<= /div>
Fascinating.=C2=A0 Thank you as always for the= insight.
Most welcome.
Clem=C2=A0
3D""=E1=90=A7
--00000000000032d19605c5215d91--