From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29226 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2020 20:44:18 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Jun 2020 20:44:18 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D79B49CAEB; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 06:44:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A199CA34; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 06:43:54 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="M8PpWOQN"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8473A9CA34; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 06:43:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f177.google.com (mail-qk1-f177.google.com [209.85.222.177]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 037BD9C96B for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 06:43:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f177.google.com with SMTP id q8so13923352qkm.12 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 13:43:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R7lWOMpNQO7b3xkcFetuNoQrbYvhTUfspeHCk69wJf4=; b=M8PpWOQNlEIZFTRbkcw017MM0qepFW0kENVw/IqYe9FNfMGWGRW80jep7HeepdJQE9 B8gDUWprETD6OkVWQ4FRAxWgEzSLqBnXbUf2BkYhpN8wdwrtQ59oqENOvoSr+nCWCP1c 0kXWpUQ670sd7B7Ndee8Qjey3Lzm6uKS608pk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R7lWOMpNQO7b3xkcFetuNoQrbYvhTUfspeHCk69wJf4=; b=e8f4R+XDo6SqmBiLxg78n45uZCocpPDw7mArWqnz3hyDGm5pls1U1Qbi4/G7WaAFqW RkaM7leleK3jUL2hCS65xADoSs9eE2vpkYSaxIZzr4KU5C2zwmszzrCCJqs5GZR7Vldp OXtQz42ZrhgWf9ApX38MCzcmBf+hhBKp5qD5/7VjvFjE43u+vxNCOvnJ+qrUivAuIhxK GroG9hlMvWYiBSIDf/B1S9KmKKmeugQlD7VJ5PRU2xgJBN+/UAQY8ccDKMcIu7hJxuNR RqNCdJBMPDY7udNYccrH1dwxDGNO44SKv6h5EUCBeYWKniOyKkQhw+5yLygYDVC2kFAq dSjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532a2u595nomg5b5Bf6W6wyhBdN2VWeOvwWg2CoACCOPdQQEBui/ hmHGutCippEkefWRtt19Ic+iPROOmmeHpzQjNR9wQoJmuLk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzfp15vI5zW718DH6Ts8frSnyPO2IcmszTF7bH7Wmi0/67b0mfgF89vbA9gkvqheMXkOpGgjACfVTLPrQTXwpM= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6385:: with SMTP id x127mr26781732qkb.307.1591130630942; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 13:43:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200602201334.95D9718C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20200602201334.95D9718C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 16:43:25 -0400 Message-ID: To: Noel Chiappa Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000c86e505a71ff8d3" Subject: Re: [TUHS] non-blocking IO X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000000c86e505a71ff8d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:14 PM Noel Chiappa wrote: > Ahem. Lots more _core_. People keeep forgetting that we're looking at > decicions made at a time when each bit in main memory was stored in a > physically separate storage device, and having tons of memory was a dream > of > the future. > Yeah -- that is something that forgotten. There's a kit/hackday project to make 32-byte core for an Arduino I did with some of my boy scouts doing electronic MB a while back just to try to give them a feel what a 'bit' was. Similarly, there was a update of in late 1960's children's book originally called 'A Million' it's now called: A Million Dots Each page has 10K dots. The idea is to help young readers get a real feel for what 'a million' means visually. > > E.g. the -11/40 I first ran Unix on had _48 KB_ of core memory - total! > And that had to hold the resident OS, plus the application! It's no > surprise that Unix was so focused on small size - and as a corollary, on > high bang/buck ratio.' Amen -- I ran an 11/34 with 64K under V6 for about 3-6 months while we were awaiting the 256K memory upgrade. > > > But even in his age of lighting one's cigars with gigabytes of main memory > (literally), small is still beautiful, because it's easier to understand, > and > complexity is bad. So it's too bad Unix has lost that extreme parsimony. > Yep -- I think we were discussing this last week WRT to cat -v/fmt et al. I fear some people confuse 'progress' with 'feature creep.' Just because we can do something, does not mean we should. As I said, I'm a real fan of async I/O and like Paul, feel that it is a 'better' primitive. But I fully understand and accept, that given the tradeoffs of the time, UNIX did really well and I much prefer what we got than the alternative. I'm happy we ended up with simply and just works. --0000000000000c86e505a71ff8d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:14 = PM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.= lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
Ahem. Lots more _core_. People keeep forgetting that we're looking at decicions made at a time when each bit in main memory was stored in a
physically separate storage device, and having tons of memory was a dream o= f
the future.
Yeah -- that is something that forgott= en.=C2=A0 There's a kit/hackday project to make 32-byte core for an Ard= uino I did with some of my boy scouts doing electronic=C2=A0MB a while back= just to try to give them a feel what a 'bit' was.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sim= ilarly, there was a update of in late 1960's children's book origin= ally called 'A Million' it's now called:=C2=A0A Million Dots
Each page has 10K dots.=C2= =A0 The idea is to help young readers get a real feel for what 'a milli= on'=C2=A0means visually.
=C2=A0

E.g. the -11/40 I first ran Unix on had _48 KB_ of core memory - total!
And that had to hold the resident OS, plus the application! It's no
surprise that Unix was so focused on small size - and as a corollary, on high bang/buck ratio.'
Amen -- I ran an= 11/34 with 64K under V6 for about 3-6 months while we were awaiting the 25= 6K memory upgrade.
=C2=A0


But even in his age of lighting one's cigars with gigabytes of main mem= ory
(literally), small is still beautiful, because it's easier to understan= d, and
complexity is bad. So it's too bad Unix has lost that extreme parsimony= .
Yep -- I think we were discussing this last week= WRT to cat -v/fmt et al.

I = fear some people confuse 'progress' with 'feature creep.'= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Just because we can do something, does not mean we should.

As I said, I'm a real fan o= f async I/O and like Paul, feel that it is=C2=A0a 'better' primitiv= e.=C2=A0 But I fully understand and accept, that given the trade= offs of the time, UNIX did really well and I much prefer what we got than t= he alternative.=C2=A0 I'm happy we ended up with simply and just works.=
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