From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 705fc342 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 19:59:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EBAB0A1A1A; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 05:59:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9693BA19FC; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 05:59:05 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b=J13XfMJ9; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 40535A19FC; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 05:59:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-io0-f181.google.com (mail-io0-f181.google.com [209.85.223.181]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99F879E7E7 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 05:59:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-io0-f181.google.com with SMTP id y12-v6so9756087ioj.13 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 12:59:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KLDWDHLaPhmRYeEWwnIpGqXNHwjTdbmQnCuNc0WSVEk=; b=J13XfMJ9BejMvLWi5L6ULeGYzB9ZPL3jtRtlrLu8jad4ouGjmpbIiWbNGQWZEUtU29 uCDnxPwomRa/6Y6cb+nHiYUmMBbGX7oVFhqABkJhHEMXAaJ/rwdayg/OdIGx2aVI3lCh /pWkQQLMxC0+Ei81x5vY0pO5NPItjm//G3/C8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KLDWDHLaPhmRYeEWwnIpGqXNHwjTdbmQnCuNc0WSVEk=; b=f+ULctXKFYshThPSwCblhYoVWAD6i/fv7iJKj2ys9u+CdLqY8xfYU5A+e5pKEZWpN2 D9xFFfB/keBchAUmlUD0YPYGGgPc9DLuoW/a6RS/LsPEZcDLsFfMQNWPnzaEzVFCQmis iM3lwJzKoMiADZb92+R74gATc+ANmcu6KWsRBcG3h9uxPWC063PzWifztL7fStqQhJ7t KxkG9334SFYao/nyohlWtqUKSx/KZg3qWVTdpIn2FNxw0/Nw7VZYr8n7RW1Zxw+fUkcF JT2p0OuhxrXV5GA78MEOhXcw0c758aAy+tfN60u4Va9M1B/Je6/8gAaRHD2hKb9wmqny Utbw== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51CJGvzAArh/3FZfNHPkjPmciFgN4/ZTOPVPBluEaw4ZEbx2Z1si 2xI3QJEypeoT5SINoAAuoTkO4i9NEEd1Vsb5mXAPyBjt X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdbQKk6ikcRbxBReXiJl5cv7CsFSciLHTYu4TzGZedw38GguRefj+FX3OYT0PXYJ3a6lbxzOuuQOXsZfdm2vjNY= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:9cc9:: with SMTP id f192-v6mr5324016ioe.284.1535227141964; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 12:59:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201808240702.w7O72pJT005068@freefriends.org> <201808251830.w7PIURLX024379@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: <201808251830.w7PIURLX024379@freefriends.org> From: Clem Cole Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 15:58:35 -0400 Message-ID: To: Aharon Robbins Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000725dd8057447ec7f" Subject: Re: [TUHS] changes in C compilers X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000725dd8057447ec7f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 2:38 PM wrote: > The APS work started in the summer of 1979. See > http://www.eprg.org/papers/202paper.pdf > and see some of the other stuff at > http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/index.html. > > I think that's after V7 was released. > Ok, so that was clearly the first ditroff. Typesetter C *must have been the original troff release* which was separate from V6; but I don't remember what all was in the release. Looking at the v6 distribution tape I have, the assembler versions of roff and nroff was there; but not troff. V7 clearly shows the original troff in the sources. The order I remember is this ... V5, V6, Patches, Typesetter C, TS, V7 ... although TS and Typesetter might be switched but I know we got Typesetter C before we got V7. Ted brought TS to us (in EE) and I thought that had the new compiler. CS got TS from us in EE. But somebody at CMU had wanted troff because we had the XGP in CS that we drive with Scribe (I want to say that was EE but I don't remember who was involved). So I have memory of somebody hacking on the compiler at some point. The POR (which if ever came to bear at CMU was after I left) was some type of hacking on troff to support the XGP. Given the time Aharon points out, it might have been direct support it or it might have been something like vcat - I was not involved. Klone might remember more of that. Clearly from the time, ditroff did not yet exist. The more I think about it, Brian K actually might know some of the story. Scribe was Brian Reid's PhD Thesis and Brian K was on Reid's committee at the time and I'm guessing could somehow have been mixed up. FWIW: Compiler hacking at CMU stands out in my mind because of the 11/40e had CSAV/CRET instructions. The CS versions of the compilers generated code using that, because they had 11/40e with CMU WCS options. The rest of us in EE, BioMed, Mellon Institute etc were running on 11/34's or 11/34A which could not handle those binaries (no WCS). So I personally spent time tracking the CS versions of the compiler and bringing things to EE, trying to keep thing clean. That was one of my jobs at the time. That's fairly sure of the order, because we had Typesetter C at CMU in the Summer '78 when were we negotiating the 'university' commercial V7 license with Al Arms [which I was personally mixed up -- the finally ruling/agreement was license one system as a commercial system at the $20K fee and a university, could then use UNIX for back office and commercial style uses like Industry. Al did not require the $5K second CPU stuff from the Universities, if they got a single $20K license; everyone was happy - details off list or another thread if you want them; although I will say CMU was first in early '79, followed by Case in late 1979]. So again, I try to date by things I know are fixed in time and then work from there. As Dan points out the cross pollination was high in those days and it was not just from the labs to the Universities. For instance, Ted took fsck back to Summit & MH, as well as a number of other tools (although I think that one had the longest reach). Noel has mentioned similar stories from MIT. Chesson brought all the networking stuff from UoI and we saw some of it in datakit (an earlier version of his mpx code for V7 he did as a grad student). You get the idea.... Clem --000000000000725dd8057447ec7f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 2:38 PM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
T= he APS work started in the summer of 1979. See http://www.epr= g.org/papers/202paper.pdf
and see some of the other stuff at
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/index.html.<= br>
I think that's after V7 was released.
Ok, so that was clearly the first ditroff.=C2=A0

Typesetter C m= ust have been the original troff release which was separate from V6= ; but I don't remember what all was in the release.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Looking= at the v6 distribution tape I have, the assembler versions of roff and nro= ff was there; but not troff.=C2=A0 =C2=A0V7 clearly shows the original trof= f in the sources.


The order I remember is this ... V5= , V6, Patches, Typesetter C, TS, V7 ...=C2=A0 =C2=A0although TS and Typeset= ter might be switched but I know we got Typesetter C before we got V7.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Ted brought TS to us (in EE) and I thought that had the new comp= iler.=C2=A0 =C2=A0CS got TS from us in EE.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But somebody at CMU= had wanted troff because we had the XGP in CS that we drive with Scribe (I= want to say that was EE but I don't remember who was involved).=C2=A0 = =C2=A0So I have memory of somebody hacking on the compiler at some point.= =C2=A0 The POR (which if ever came to bear at CMU was after I left) was som= e type of hacking on troff to support the XGP.=C2=A0 Given the time Aharon = points out, it might have been direct support it or it might have been some= thing like vcat - I was not involved.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Klone might remember more= of that.

Clearly from the time, ditroff did not yet e= xist.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The more I think about it, Brian K actually might know so= me of the story.=C2=A0 Scribe was Brian Reid's PhD Thesis and Brian K w= as on Reid's committee at the time and I'm guessing could somehow h= ave been mixed up.

FWIW: Compiler hacking at CMU stand= s out in my mind because of the 11/40e had CSAV/CRET instructions.=C2=A0 Th= e CS versions of the compilers generated code using that, because they had = 11/40e with CMU WCS options.=C2=A0 The rest of us in EE, BioMed, Mellon Ins= titute etc were running on 11/34's or 11/34A which could not handle tho= se binaries (no WCS).=C2=A0 =C2=A0So I personally spent time tracking the C= S versions of the compiler and bringing things to EE, trying to keep thing = clean.=C2=A0 That was one of my jobs at the time.

That= 's fairly sure of the order, because we had Typesetter C at CMU in the = Summer '78 when were we negotiating the 'university' commercial= V7 license with Al Arms [which I was personally mixed up -- the finally ru= ling/agreement was license one system as a commercial system at the $20K fe= e and a university, could then use UNIX for back office and commercial styl= e uses like Industry.=C2=A0 Al did not require the $5K second CPU stuff fro= m the Universities, if they got a single $20K license; everyone was happy -= details off list or another thread if you want them; although I will say C= MU was first in early '79, followed by Case in late 1979].

=
So again, I try to date by things I know are fixed in time and the= n work from there.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As Dan points out the cross pollination was = high in those days and it was not just from the labs to the Universities.= =C2=A0 For instance, Ted took fsck back to Summit & MH, as well as a nu= mber of other tools (although I think that one had the longest reach).=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Noel has mentioned similar stories from MIT.=C2=A0 Chesson brough= t all the networking stuff from UoI and we saw some of it in datakit (an ea= rlier version of his mpx code for V7 he did as a grad student).=C2=A0 =C2= =A0You get the idea....

Clem

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