From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id dff8fbb5 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 13:30:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D09D49D77A; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 23:30:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E78EE9D777; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 23:29:37 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="gSEVRoyT"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EF6859D777; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 23:29:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f45.google.com (mail-qv1-f45.google.com [209.85.219.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 652429D698 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 23:29:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f45.google.com with SMTP id e7so2309074qvy.9 for ; Sat, 07 Mar 2020 05:29:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9GWQCc369X09sm6614eQhl2sGAVXbfKna3jPw/2pty0=; b=gSEVRoyTDX1N/IFvr8uQUX9MfSXOBXHezmKNj2dSJOnmMvUgpsog98+uPHY4lNBHr3 RsxqLJpYpDnVvk7VfOWGlCvNfikJHcEgie/msD6xpjUIRgNZR/oGF5pM8WpiuRfwJHSJ Uy8gKpoHiA2/uAvbRJ/5eKEP3T2BkbgcC4Pmo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9GWQCc369X09sm6614eQhl2sGAVXbfKna3jPw/2pty0=; b=Ex+4TaxgOEEZB5rziRRBzhYZAbCiGp8GT8GRJTPaGt/PTX0saSgXF6ueY5W+pV98Bt r3yyUlkfBeOEU3h7JFqfk/WnLSo4LfeMo5Mpfqtl9KK9T37uj00dwwZg6xOVICLIqx2+ vKOaLOg1ITQaTdW7F8rKvKsPlCea6Hrk/Exa5sp8/xi191qA/My5Ind2FxDGz0rRhbxS NoeJx8VXFj6MBb78tVqr7VpNqkB6RaHkVHIBnfi2e/9vouw6cg2r76aQXsIkNjeUdYie K7HyKVeGEv3Nyqpd3DssEwb6L83lp1uc6qfpuxqdSKRSCaa6FuWV4P4xrRD50c9R1q3k 94Zg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1DidXTBd+fU4dvvZ830ZpMa/a1gMjUKWELEcogfiMBc8XZcUJz E1HU0FJm2Zy/lLvVju0C4PDOOqBeZsi7z/ye6t8D4g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vs2wSWACFDTS5Gyjuuo7oZcIa7FD2d4OsW5lItZhvrAd/nW/lzCljVfE//sRWJyV1G3i6ShzBbBcgTbe6dyVEU= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:5222:: with SMTP id r2mr4791447qvq.178.1583587771404; Sat, 07 Mar 2020 05:29:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200306224431.D226C18C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <3D1DBF45-AE50-4027-8AAA-6C1D97D28D4D@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: <3D1DBF45-AE50-4027-8AAA-6C1D97D28D4D@planet.nl> From: Clem Cole Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 08:29:05 -0500 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000095ffc805a043c268" Subject: Re: [TUHS] First appearance of named pipes X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Bruce Borden , Dave Yost Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000095ffc805a043c268 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable below.. in-line On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 7:18 AM Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > Thanks for the feedback, all. > > Rand ports were done in 1977 by Sunshine/Zucker. I=E2=80=99ve only come a= cross > Rand Ports in the context of V6 and the Arpa crowd 1977-1981. I=E2=80=99v= e never > seen a reference to Rand Ports on V7 or later. This of course does not me= an > that it did not exist. > Steve Glaser hacked was playing with them at Tektronix in 1979, as he had put them into their V6 system before I got there IIRC. I switched the user code to use Chesson's MPX in V7, which is why I think they never were used much in V7. I've forgotten what Bruce used for UNET - I'm CC'ing him here, hoping to jog his memory., > > I=E2=80=99ve dug further, and it would seem that named pipes under the na= me =E2=80=98fifo=E2=80=99 > appeared first in SysIII (1980). That matches with Luderer=E2=80=99s rema= rk. It > does not seem to exist in the Research editions. It only appears in BSD i= n > the Reno release, 1990. All in all, it would seem that =E2=80=98fifo=E2= =80=99s were a SysV > thing for most of the 80=E2=80=99s, with the BSD lineage using domain soc= kets > instead (as Clem mentioned). > Yes, that's right. And if you were someone like Masscomp or Pyramid trying to thread both systems, we had both in our kernels. > > Interestingly, Luderer also refers to a 1978 paper by Steve Holmgren (one > of the Arpa Unix authors), suggesting =E2=80=99sockets=E2=80=99 (in today= =E2=80=99s parlance) for > interproces communication. > > Paul > > PS really nobody on the list recalls Luderer's (et al.) distributed Unix > and how it related to other work ?? > > > > On 6 Mar 2020, at 23:44, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > > > >> From: Paul Ruizendaal > > > >> The paper is from late 1981. ... When did FIFO's become a > >> standard Unix feature? > > > > Err, V4? :-) At least, that's when pipes arrived (I think - we don't > have V4 > > sources, but there are indications that's when they appeared), and a > pipe is a > > FIFO. RAND ports just allowed (effectively) a pipe to have a name in th= e > file > > system. > > > > The implementation of both is pretty straight-forward. A pipe is just a > file > > which has a maximum length, after which the writer is blocked. A port i= s > > just a pipe (it uses the pipe code) whose inode appears in the file > system. > > > >> From: Clem Cole > > > >> I think the code is on one of the 'USENIX' tapes in Warren's archives. > > > > Doc is here: > > > > https://minnie.tuhs.org//cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=3DBBN-V6/doc/ipc > > > > and sources for all that are here: > > > > https://minnie.tuhs.org//cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=3DBBN-V6/dmr > > https://minnie.tuhs.org//cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=3DBBN-V6/ken > > > > (port.c is in 'dmr', not 'ken'where it should be). > > > > Noel > > --00000000000095ffc805a043c268 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
below.. in-line

On Sat, Mar 7, 20= 20 at 7:18 AM Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@plan= et.nl> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, all.

Rand ports were done in 1977 by Sunshine/Zucker. I=E2=80=99ve only come acr= oss Rand Ports in the context of V6 and the Arpa crowd 1977-1981. I=E2=80= =99ve never seen a reference to Rand Ports on V7 or later. This of course d= oes not mean that it did not exist.
Steve Glaser ha= cked was playing with them at Tektronix in 1979, as he had put them into th= eir V6 system before I got there IIRC.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I switched the user code= to use Chesson's MPX in V7, which is why I think they never were used = much in V7.

I've forgotten what Bruce used for UNE= T - I'm CC'ing him here, hoping to jog his memory.,

=

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99ve dug further, and it would seem that named pipes under the name= =E2=80=98fifo=E2=80=99 appeared first in SysIII (1980). That matches with = Luderer=E2=80=99s remark. It does not seem to exist in the Research edition= s. It only appears in BSD in the Reno release, 1990. All in all, it would s= eem that =E2=80=98fifo=E2=80=99s were a SysV thing for most of the 80=E2=80= =99s, with the BSD lineage using domain sockets instead (as Clem mentioned)= .

Yes, that's right.=C2=A0 And if = you were someone like Masscomp or Pyramid=C2=A0trying to thread both system= s, we had both in our kernels.

=C2=A0

Interestingly, Luderer also refers to a 1978 paper by Steve Holmgren (one o= f the Arpa Unix authors), suggesting =E2=80=99sockets=E2=80=99 (in today=E2= =80=99s parlance) for interproces communication.

Paul

PS really nobody on the list recalls Luderer's (et al.) distributed Uni= x and how it related to other work ??


> On 6 Mar 2020, at 23:44, Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> From: Paul Ruizendaal
>
>> The paper is from late 1981. ... When did FIFO's become a
>> standard Unix feature?
>
> Err, V4? :-) At least, that's when pipes arrived (I think - we don= 't have V4
> sources, but there are indications that's when they appeared), and= a pipe is a
> FIFO. RAND ports just allowed (effectively) a pipe to have a name in t= he file
> system.
>
> The implementation of both is pretty straight-forward. A pipe is just = a file
> which has a maximum length, after which the writer is blocked. A port = is
> just a pipe (it uses the pipe code) whose inode appears in the file sy= stem.
>
>> From: Clem Cole
>
>> I think the code is on one of the 'USENIX' tapes in Warren= 's archives.
>
> Doc is here:
>
>=C2=A0 https://minnie.tuhs.org//c= gi-bin/utree.pl?file=3DBBN-V6/doc/ipc
>
> and sources for all that are here:
>
> https://minnie.tuhs.org//cgi-bin/utr= ee.pl?file=3DBBN-V6/dmr
> https://minnie.tuhs.org//cgi-bin/utr= ee.pl?file=3DBBN-V6/ken
>
> (port.c is in 'dmr', not 'ken'where it should be).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Noel

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