From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id b9a8a722 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 18:57:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6D1D39BD88; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 04:57:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04549BD16; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 04:56:45 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="KuUkW67M"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 462F69BCD7; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 04:56:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-f43.google.com (mail-wr1-f43.google.com [209.85.221.43]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 705349BCD0 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 04:56:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-f43.google.com with SMTP id c3so859888wrd.7 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 11:56:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5KhzUo4rsPrgqaVMXR5f+YQkaSEGxhgtB4rig5ZMfEI=; b=KuUkW67MeYHJTotQ47f98If2hdrkVI0auPygOsLDhyX2BNSVBJXxvPCCsZv/PBWhmK IyF/q616jZ9t4/ziIbAfj3L3KVpLd7g4vR2D8aoJXFI3J208UZUV3ItVIDvJTdqAMdkm Yq6TuAnTwHvJgEOBx4pdesR4CBlPX5UQYMEt0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5KhzUo4rsPrgqaVMXR5f+YQkaSEGxhgtB4rig5ZMfEI=; b=RNHBEMOcSLOPYXxsqH1scIj4oiUXrff/ilmcF48ParVF2hZLdxWzdscWDSG7pUjn7p Eu4VaW7wiWdEMzGTanRlWeuVKyYGf62cufZfJOZj4PuzJyzRkz5vUaYqSov0HG9Hplw0 6WiqR5VsaGv1A81jeg/fdy2wanxseStv91g3iuXMELonurBHUdyonK48tMfzwpabXuer Tn/tkD9l7ql0hzKthYygaCET6V3zF4QbGHV/e4dQ3m3ny+UyAXS/i3MmPZt8S8HJURch mgkQWV46+Am8ImSc/Kr3am2V7LIAcB73vPIlX4VUg9w2hWPd737i4RwuvWA99aVibVAA 0ZeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV5w7xY/gMdqlAAl9eAvyyZK9rCgkW3fn7iMf2AtGWATS2yn15C udeJUrN/pNonEnxbIhu2uWqtm0LdebaH1BRA5j3K/WWCuyPIGA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwg1b8scXLannsThSZh6W4u7FDud+ET21sMu5KWZGDGo5jCVjkLYbdC3GfjE4YFPoTk9Qu9rmjR7PypKslRQ9U= X-Received: by 2002:adf:e750:: with SMTP id c16mr6658782wrn.199.1567018600978; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 11:56:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190828063045.GE75146@server.rulingia.com> <20190828173228.GZ13570@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20190828173228.GZ13570@mcvoy.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 14:56:14 -0400 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001176eb059131f3a6" Subject: Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org" Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000001176eb059131f3a6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 1:32 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > Perhaps Clem can shed some light on why DEC did a MIPS machine? > I did not work for DEC at the time and obviously, I was not in the room, so this is what I can say I picked up. Supnik would be a better person to ask. That said, some things I do know about the time/and behinds the scene. - Jupiter and Prism had been canceled. - Alpha did not yet exist (and would not for another 2 years) - Cutler had left for Microsoft etc.. - Sun was clearly on its game - The VAX on a Chip just was not cutting it - RISC architectures were the hot item Here is where I get fuzzy on details. - I believe a prototype (i.e. skunk works) MIPS was running at WRL in Palo Alto running Ultrix and DEC windows, I think using some sort of cheap ??PC?? chassis. - But the performance of the prototype was excellent and cost was cheaper than the current vax products. - Somebody sr, maybe Bob, shows this to Sr management and got the money to productize it. The issue as making an official Ultrix for it was I know a big one. Ultimately, DEC farmed that work out to us at LCC (with us eventually taking over all of Ultrix - MIPS and Vax). So, I think the MIPS product was a holding pattern while DEC got it's strategy together. Alpha would really show up until later (I would leave LCC and go to DEC to be apart if that). Also note Alpha was brought up/debugged on Ultrix and of course, Prism sort of had Ultrix on it. But I think using the MIPS chip keep them in the game, when Vax was dying and RISC was the word on the street. FWIW: The issue of OSF/1 was a different one. The whole switching off Ultrix, getting to a new OS had been kicking around DEC for a while. One of the arguments for Cutler had been his new Mica system was that it could run both Unix and VMS on top of it - *i.e.* a single OS kernel. When Prism was canceled (along with Mica) and Cutler left, that was a huge hole for DEC's SW strategy. Oppose Sun Forever (OSF) as it was formed to counter the Sun/AT&T move. That gave DEC a way out. But remember, OSF/1 on MIPS was actually not a full product. What you got was what OSF had released, which is why it really more like a beta. While it started down the path to being a product; and DEC did specifically made it available (primarily to Universities/Research types), DEC management was very reluctant to release it because they did not want to support it. In fact, LCC was asked to give a bid on taking it on after we had taken over Ultrix. DEC management already saw Ultrix/MIPS as a resource drag once Alpha finally had been committed. [ FYI: this was the same behavior as IBM on AIX/360 BTW. Funny, how big companies sometimes do things like this]. I always said, asking customers (and the ISVs) to switch OS and ISA in one step was what caused a huge problem for DEC [along with the ISA being 64-bit only and ISV/customer code 32-bit dirty]. I've often wondered if a 32/64 bit OSF/1 MIPS stepping stone using the R4400 had been available, particularly with the Gem compiler suite (which they had but never released outside of DEC), it would have allowed the ISVs to move to Alpha quicker. Having to do it all in one step, cost them 3 years and more importantly, by the time the code was 64-bit clean; Sun & PPC had a 64-bit system and took the ISVs with away. Clem --0000000000001176eb059131f3a6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 1:32= PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wr= ote:
Perhaps Cle= m can shed some light on why DEC did a MIPS machine?=C2=A0
=
I did not work for DEC at the time and obviously, I was not in the= room, so this is what I can say I picked up.=C2=A0 Supnik would be a bette= r person to ask.=C2=A0 That said, some things I do know about the time/and behinds the s= cene.
  • Jupiter and Prism had been canceled.=C2=A0
  • Alpha did not yet exist (and would not for another 2 years)
  • Cutler had left for Microsoft etc..=
  • Sun was clearly on its game
  • The VAX on a= Chip just was not cutting it
  • RISC architectures=C2=A0we= re the hot item
Here is where I get fuzzy on details.
    =
  • I bel= ieve a prototype (i.e. skunk works) MIPS was running at WRL in P= alo Alto running Ultrix and DEC windows, I think using some sort of che= ap ??PC?? chassis.
  • But the performance of the prototype was excellent= and cost was cheaper than the current vax products.
  • = Somebody sr, may= be Bob, shows this to Sr management and got the money to productize it.=C2= =A0 The issue as making an official Ultrix for it was I know a big one.=C2= =A0 Ultimately, DEC farmed that work out to us at LCC (with us eventually t= aking over all of Ultrix - MIPS and Vax).
So, I think the MIPS produ= ct was a holding pattern while DEC got it's strategy together. Alpha wo= uld really show up until later (I would leave LCC and go to DEC to be apart= if that).=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also note Alpha was brought up/debugged on Ultrix an= d of course, Prism sort of had Ultrix on it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But I think using= the MIPS chip keep them in the game, when Vax was dying and RISC was the w= ord on the street.

FWIW: The issue of OSF/1 was a diff= erent one.=C2=A0 The whole switching off Ultrix, getting to a new OS had be= en kicking around DEC for a while.=C2=A0 One of the arguments for Cutler ha= d been his new Mica system was that it could run both Unix and VMS on top o= f it - i.e. a single OS kernel.=C2=A0 When Prism was canceled (along= with Mica) and Cutler left, that was a huge hole for DEC's SW strategy= .

Oppose Sun Forever (OSF) as it was formed to counter= the Sun/AT&T move.=C2=A0 That gave DEC a way out.=C2=A0 But remember,= =C2=A0= OSF/1 on MIPS was actually not a full product.=C2=A0 =C2=A0What you got= was what OSF had released, which is why it really more like a beta.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 While it started down the = path to being a product; and=C2= =A0DEC did specifically made it available (primarily = to Universities/Research types), DEC management=C2=A0= was very reluctant to release it because they did not want t= o support it.=C2=A0 In fact, LCC was asked to give a bid on taking i= t on after we had taken over Ultrix.=C2=A0 =C2=A0DEC management already saw= Ultrix/MIPS as a resource drag once Alpha finally had been committed.=C2= =A0[ FYI: this was the same behavior as IBM on AIX/360 BTW.=C2= =A0 Funny, how big companies sometimes do things like this].=C2= =A0

I always said, asking customers (and= the ISVs) to switch OS and ISA in one step was what caused a huge problem = for DEC [along with the ISA being 64-bit only and ISV/customer code 32-bit = dirty].=C2=A0 =C2=A0I've often wondered if a 32/64 bit OSF/1 MIPS stepp= ing stone using the R4400 had been available, particularly with the Gem com= piler suite (which they had but never released outside of DEC), it would ha= ve allowed the ISVs to move to Alpha quicker.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Having to do it a= ll in one step, cost them 3 years and more importantly, by the time the cod= e was 64-bit clean; Sun & PPC had a 64-bit system and took the ISVs wit= h away.=C2=A0

Clem

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