From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 0b0a1ba8 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 16:17:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8E8989D6F2; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:17:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9ED9D6E8; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:16:35 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="U4HjcPIZ"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 28B7B9CE1E; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:16:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f181.google.com (mail-qt1-f181.google.com [209.85.160.181]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 565FC9D51B for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:16:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f181.google.com with SMTP id p34so6903014qtb.6 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:16:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ESabeMd8Z5IGBQw9oZqvGXSIdUf3ZJw/7smjE/UOoSo=; b=U4HjcPIZ4eAzMpnq3+NrkTmQxSSjeRCPoffA3cp0UIwFc+vE3bXtRmlrQ+zfCVB8IR ZBsZo/Ptf2Y4QDpl+MnFVQLu5i/1gLGRAeAWAWzhw3Ej5eTmXKgg5e98VaGf1xdBVCcU Pzkx2/K9t02NsKddwe0N1ISNPcaEHE5ie8q6g= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ESabeMd8Z5IGBQw9oZqvGXSIdUf3ZJw/7smjE/UOoSo=; b=WzmvFL4v4KsNT3YhfbvVVI9YIPDLG+Wk6oUGRJ90QGWNnDPONfHvDTpHhyNsS06aXs PnX2rLnWUxIfR2OA5L2YbHdgajViqy6ysEE/1WkN2eVlM3ZYB1gNMFYQTvmRAHAkprqD Ca5areI8KkSk+XD1spKkgml2iMa0U4u3r83AZDAzn9k/8pknuYoEhUAbz+uZe6gXimuZ REmEFeLe6cZUQ+qbUyF7L/gU7tQ6gK+kIGr6GHaF1/uCw/I3T7tL1fiEEhUySgeXj6LP cgnE+g3PuozORAjVKonlSPMjwBGuUFpH9vYwSDHBRHIidt1E3ch/qNa1JIqAnIEY9Phh rTIA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUNKTX6MXxA3TC0CewqFHTS7sdPyzyM9pX+zlEzjbF10EdCkSFv ETSINSKgu91wZsx1jnICkTiSB4HAHKiAMQYZXiOqXw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyz6piss2RKxCT/4HnN7V1wS1oaDlLD5Rcn9VqYzSiqpQY96DWz+NFwVhKB615pSR5o/zRTrStKc2Z9LXT3yHw= X-Received: by 2002:aed:2202:: with SMTP id n2mr50284893qtc.4.1582560973171; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:16:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200212030152.GJ852@mcvoy.com> <20200224104010.2d8510cfe00da71439f5d05e@sjmulder.nl> <20200224151929.GJ30841@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:15:46 -0500 Message-ID: To: Adam Thornton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a4449b059f54b000" Subject: Re: [TUHS] [COFF] Fwd: Old and Tradition was V9 shell X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society , Computer Old Farts Followers Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000a4449b059f54b000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First please continue this discussion on COFF (which has been CC'ed). While Fortran is interesting to many, it not a UNIX topic per say. Also, as I have noted in other places, I work for Intel - these comments are my own and I'm not trying to sell you anything. Just passing on 45+ years of programming experience. On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 10:34 AM Adam Thornton wrote: > I would think that FORTRAN is likelier to be passed around as folk wisdom > and ancient PIs (uh, Primary Investigators, not the detective kind) > thrusting a dog-eared FORTRAN IV manual at their new grad students and > snarling "RTFM!" than as actual college courses. > FWIW: I was at CMU last week recruiting. Fortran, even at a leading CS place like CMU, is hardly "folk wisdom". All the science PhD's (Chem, Mat Sci, Bio, Physics) that I interviewed all knew and used Fortran (nad listed on their CV's) as their primary language for their science. As I've quipped before, Fortran pays my own (and a lot of other people's salaries in the industry). Check out: https://www.archer.ac.uk/status/codes/ Fortran is about 90% of the codes running (FWIW: I have seen similar statistics from other large HPC sites - you'll need to poke). While I do not write in it, I believe there are three reasons why these statistics are true and* going to be true for a very long time*: 1. The math being used has not changed. Just open up the codes and look at what they are doing. You will find that they all are all solving systems of partial differential equations using linear algebra (-- see t= he movie: "Hidden Figures"). 2. 50-75 years of data sets with know qualities and programs to work with them. If you were able to replace the codes magically with somethi= ng 'better' - (from MathLab to Julia or Python to Java) all their data woul= d have to be requalified (it is like the QWERTY keyboard - that shipped sailed years ago). 3. The *scientists want to do their science* for their work to get their degree or prize. The computer and its programs *are a tool* for them look at data *to do their science*. They don't care as long as they get their work done. Besides Adam's mention of flang, there is, of course, gfortran; but there are also commerical compilers available for use: Qualify for Free Software | Intel=C2=AE Software I believe PGI offers something similar, but I have not checked in a while. Most 'production' codes use a real compiler like Intel, PGI or Cray's. FWIW: the largest number of LLVM developers are at Intel now. IMO, while flang is cute, it will be a toy for a while, as the LLVM IL really can not handle Fortran easily. There is a huge project to put a number of the learnings from the DEC Gem compilers into LLVM and one piece is gutting the internal IL and making work for parallel architectures. The >>hope<< by many of my peeps, (still unproven) is that at some point the FOSS world will produce a compiler as good a Gem or the current Intel icc/ifort set. (Hence, Intel is forced to support 3 different compiler technologies internally in the technical languages group). --000000000000a4449b059f54b000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

F= irst please continue=C2=A0this discussion on COFF (which has been CC'ed= ).=C2=A0 While=C2=A0Fortran is interesting=C2=A0to many, it not a UNIX topi= c per say.

Also, as I have noted in other places, I work for Intel = - these comments are my own and I'm not trying to sell you anything.=C2= =A0 Just passing on 45+ years of programming experience.
=
On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 10= :34 AM Adam Thornton <athornton@g= mail.com> wrote:
I would think = that FORTRAN is likelier to be passed around as folk wisdom and ancient PIs= (uh, Primary Investigators, not the detective kind) thrusting a dog-eared = FORTRAN IV manual at their new grad students and snarling "RTFM!"= than as actual college courses.
FWIW: I was at CMU last week recruiting.=C2=A0 Fortra= n, even at a leading CS place like CMU, is hardly "folk wisdom". = All the science PhD's (Chem, Mat Sci, Bio, Physics) that I interviewed = all knew and used Fortran (nad listed on their CV's) as their primary l= anguage=C2=A0for their science.=C2=A0

As I've q= uipped before, Fortran pays my own (and a lot of other people's salarie= s in the industry).=C2=A0 Check out:=C2=A0=C2=A0ht= tps://www.archer.ac.uk/status/codes/=C2=A0Fortran is about 90% of the c= odes running (FWIW:=C2=A0 I have = seen similar statistics=C2=A0from other large HPC sites - you'll need t= o poke).

While I do not write in it, I believe there are three reas= ons why these statistics are true and going to be true for a very long t= ime:
  1. The math being used= has not changed.=C2=A0 Just=C2=A0open up the codes and look at what they a= re doing.=C2=A0 You will find that they all are all solving systems of part= ial differential equations using linear algebra (-- see the movie:=C2=A0 &q= uot;Hidden Figures").
  2. 50-75 yea= rs of data sets with know qualities and programs to work with them.=C2=A0 I= f you were able to replace the codes magically with something 'better&#= 39; - (from MathLab to Julia or Python to Java) all their data would have t= o be requalified (it is like the QWERTY keyboard - that shipped sailed year= s ago).
  3. The scientists want to do= their science for their work to get their degree or prize.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0The computer and its programs are a tool for them look at data to do their science.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They don't care as long as they g= et their work done.

Besides Adam's mention of flang, th= ere is, of course, gfortran; but there are also commerical=C2=A0compilers a= vailable for use:=C2=A0=C2=A0Qualify for Free Software | Intel=C2=AE S= oftware=C2=A0 I believe PGI offers something similar, but I have not ch= ecked in a while.=C2=A0 Most 'production' codes use a real compiler= like Intel, PGI or Cray's.
FWIW: the largest number of LLV= M developers are at Intel now.=C2=A0 IMO, while=C2=A0flang=C2=A0is=C2=A0cut= e, it will be a toy for a while, as the LLVM IL really can not handle Fortr= an easily.=C2=A0 There is a huge project to put a number of the learnings f= rom the DEC Gem compilers into LLVM and one piece is gutting the internal I= L and making work for parallel architectures.=C2=A0 The >>hope<<= ; by many of my peeps, (still unproven) is that at some point the FOSS worl= d will produce a compiler as good a Gem or the current Intel icc/ifort set.= =C2=A0 (Hence, Intel is forced to support=C2=A03 different compiler technol= ogies internally in the technical languages group).

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