From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 9213 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2023 19:01:36 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Mar 2023 19:01:36 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051F0412DA; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 05:01:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe34.google.com (mail-vs1-xe34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e34]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB5B1412C5 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 05:01:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe34.google.com with SMTP id y3so1990272vsl.11 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 12:01:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1678734077; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=xlr88H1ASr0XhsYnbeVITO6b0l3Ww6aqi75pRjV1URk=; b=duGNhu5W3YkYKodUQt6AyoyaWeReilqFEPKasO2Yjfn1WpWRq/VVUPaw4KV3lZLCAx aVgARlhu2SNRJv5gSMQowFCK5bCGUHQUzznkh50YiWFl4ePKANXJu2urSduVOZbQBovW 89serumvDR6enknQC8eP8qJeKFGMZSluGc0ZA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678734077; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=xlr88H1ASr0XhsYnbeVITO6b0l3Ww6aqi75pRjV1URk=; b=CgoZJVqdEmEu0dOG0TrBXYDiNtbXn3P8NBECcM/rziS88V0djHkc75GJ/zqBk7kMTw TKblOUj6/9yiQcxo0pROmxdAZebrAV3D8tAIIMa0f7/UR4Z6TSjRfzq0Ctp2KarH9oM/ 0vFIZ2Ur1g3KwrRF0OS1H0m3a0H6P/b0sICLnZLW1oxAc5t6d1a+GJ5Vw7kuuw1/Zag4 umPmJ0BL1QAEpiJluyVWRc1BAPaAUh7E9DT21DwhgDprv5eoAOdWTyp9G69M9n1e8FTs 0hzFqKHJ2J01vwIqZNJGECzmktq2c/Fg6oXQjAO1bkkslfNb7JoshX1c1KvY0BNm8KBc 3hTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXM2Qe5V++NUIyYh/M5pIhdIAQrd4u7QuU0Iofvf6NfEKcRcjK2 xlunMH/xy5/2owNXRYEZgg1p7hSSCcyzWpMVeWonhg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+XLgux8KHmBlML6X4pRvPf7Tn7nnZyHUrVVRXE4jcktl56SLJko88bZ/YFvAb4JAXsQdRd2NXuinxx/DeDra8= X-Received: by 2002:a67:cfc6:0:b0:402:999f:51dd with SMTP id h6-20020a67cfc6000000b00402999f51ddmr23259397vsm.3.1678734077333; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 12:01:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230310113708.AD55518C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:00:51 -0400 Message-ID: To: Paul Winalski Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005a2c2705f6ccbcbc" Message-ID-Hash: BHFS3EXB5R4Y35VPHEVHCTCXUQ5CAOD3 X-Message-ID-Hash: BHFS3EXB5R4Y35VPHEVHCTCXUQ5CAOD3 X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Alejandro Colomar , TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: [TUHS]: C dialects (was: I can't drive 55: "GOTO considered harmful" 55th anniversary) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000005a2c2705f6ccbcbc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 12:00=E2=80=AFPM Paul Winalski wrote: > ... The committee's goal is to standardize existing practice of the > language > in a way that is implementable on the widest range of hardware and OS > platforms, *and to provide a controlled way to add language extensions.* Ah, the problem, of course, is right there. Too many people try to "fix" programming languages, particularly academics and folks working on a new PhD. Other folks (Gnu is the best example IMO) want to change things so the compiler writers (and it seems like the Linux kernel developers) can do something "better" or "more easily." As someone (I think Dan Cross) said, when that happens, it's no longer C. Without Dennis here to say "whoa," - the committee is a tad open loop. Today's language is hardly the language I learned before the "White Book" existed in the early/mid 1970s. It's actually quite sad. I'm not so sure we are "better" off. Frankly, I'd probably rather see ISO drop a bunch of the stuff they are now requiring and fall back at least to K&R2 -- keep it simple. The truth is that we still use the language today is that K&R2 C was then (and still is) good enough and got (gets) the job done extremely well. Overall, I'm not sure all the new "features" have added all that much. =E1=90=A7 --0000000000005a2c2705f6ccbcbc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 12:0= 0=E2=80=AFPM Paul Winalski <p= aul.winalski@gmail.com> wrote:
... The committee's goal is= to standardize existing practice of the language
in a way that is implementable on the widest range of hardware and OS
platforms, and to provide a controlled way to add language extensions= .
Ah, the problem, of course, is right there.<= /span>=C2=A0

Too many people try to= "fix" programming languages, particularly academics and folks wo= rking on a new PhD. Other folks (Gnu is the best example IMO) want to chang= e things so the compiler writers (and it seems like the Linux kernel develo= pers) can do something "better" or "more easily."=C2=A0= =C2=A0As some= one (I think Dan Cross) said, when that happens, it's no longer C. With= out Dennis here to say "whoa," - the committee=C2=A0is a tad open= loop.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Today's language is hardly the language I learned be= fore the "White Book" existed in the early/mid 1970s.=C2=A0 It= 9;s actually quite sad.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm not so sure we are "better= " off.

Frankly, I'= ;d probably rather see ISO drop a bunch of the stuff they are now requiring= and fall back at least to K&R2 -- keep it simple. The truth is that we= still use the language today is that K&R2 C was then (and still is) go= od enough and got (gets) the job done extremely well.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Overall,= I'm not sure all the new "features" have added all that much= .
3D""=E1=90=A7
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