From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 6e2e639d for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:36:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A3FD4A1B17; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 01:36:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D828A1AFD; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 01:35:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 36B5AA1AFD; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 01:35:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f44.google.com (mail-wm1-f44.google.com [209.85.128.44]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B5F8A1AFC for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2018 01:35:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f44.google.com with SMTP id u13-v6so5691303wmc.4 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:35:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VAlalHnyDFnFPrgm/wbAtkmnmB9kSYK3mGhPOiSS6iY=; b=Yr9m9Y2cj+P+yz+dQ8HzeUHIBlWlzfYVyZkMHF/4sjb/RjwMV4N/P+P3rozaSvR3DH F6gpaPSZxGBFpThKLERysTvemSxHP2zV8quoye3v3jJCojWb1ZjEChZ0ntQzFH60bkVe 0aCNPmZHUONl/gN75bYJwWZowxt9hgnZ0LrSA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VAlalHnyDFnFPrgm/wbAtkmnmB9kSYK3mGhPOiSS6iY=; b=iE/Vu947oz+dCNZLC9vNU6XjagXCt72vzw1xmU1GvOw4r9AMcVrnFJNP+JGLWyieod 6Noa4r9EnUoAFg0NvEUFLe0rmyOLAZ5Nqynb/JXDvLXD7GdGZVOYKAxSjPUD67Y32Irc s/D+I7tGaKI9z8JuU0nAYT5yGmUA6GDc50tE++d6ue4/QPT3m3VRXksJ1y+pSjqdYVGk Z+59B/8atsOeiigbVZMK8aE2m7H11kZyU7I8f0p9mnqJ5OBgssnMiMzEtsIBkO11beYL A+TGdeqeZhh/zumt12sHB6P8DPavKd96Pac60j/P2+1ECQWlRl3X0+q/nuPeePa9ZD8S QQwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZzwwSUmTVcRon6ywUtad5cu0XtaurNW6Q6zJtykFc4elwPfs5m zNEYKXwpzX9bKBj2CvkLi5dUbw3c2rIUH+15cG3M7/Xub0U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5eg5Gfyh0A+QJguTuo7ROP+w7bw+Jz+LHQ8KrMpgXWl3nt0KVwidocRgSnqa+8PpWxsX6R1vz5yTcIVyxQ2BvE= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:1849:: with SMTP id 70-v6mr7408686wmy.110.1542641734675; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:35:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201811160003.wAG03mlF139232@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> <20181116045016.GK3341@mcvoy.com> <7a632484-cdc7-7c59-7077-7a2c752045da@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4c36b2b2-76df-435f-27bc-e1feb0647f36@case.edu> <201811162113.wAGLDGiQ031455@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <201811190311.wAJ3BDHR028154@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: <201811190311.wAJ3BDHR028154@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:35:05 -0500 Message-ID: To: Jon Steinhart Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009c8cca057b064480" Subject: Re: [TUHS] man-page style X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000009c8cca057b064480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 10:11 PM Jon Steinhart wrote: > Sort of like Americans expecting others to speak to them in English when > they travel instead of understanding that they're in a different > environment and it makes more sense to learn the culture as it's unlikely > that everybody is gonna change just for you. Amen, brother Jon, can we get another Amen.. > This is not a unique problem with man vs info. I see it in the large > number of different make utilities, package managers, and so on that > really don't provide new functionality but do make it much harder to be a > practitioner since one has a lot more stuff to learn for no real benefit. > Exactly!! > > So were it me, I would have looked at the current culture in the UNIX > environment and figured out how it gracefully extend it for new > functionality. To me, that's > a mark of good engineering instead of being a bull in a china shop. I referred to this previously as the principle of 'least astonishment.' Again - the argument for doing what he (and his followers did was) 'Gnu is Not Unix' - but my reply is that they created UNIX when they were done. They road the research train, then BSD rode the same UNIX train to start and now ride the UNIX look/work alike, Linux, rides it still. And because it was incremental on the past, we get more behind it. A much as I'm live and left live, and to each her/his own -- if GNU had been a new system, then I might be a lot more willing to accept that the argument. But what was build was (and is) not. GNU is just the current and expanded UNIX implementation. And the so its have the man page being useless and expecting people to use info in just wrong. Even if you are used it it (ok, so you found English speakers when you travelled). And Ted is not that I don't use the unix documents (full papers) - hey I do. That is how I learned to use 'make' when it appeared (or C for that matter) from documents in /usr/doc. \ What started this whole thread was Doug's comment about how succinct and to the point man was. If was a fine interface for >>UNIX<<. Man (using roff) was what people expect. It's not about better or worse -- it worked and worked well. As I said, if man had been maintained as the primary >>manual<< style interface and /usr/doc//foo.ms as the primary scheme (which >>IS<< what BSD did), then you don't fail the rule of least astonishment. Then create a *roff -Tinfo | info_create backend, that produced the info files; those that want it, get it and love it. Those that >>expect<< man to work because its UNIX, get what they expect. No one is 'astonished.' A good example of that in a different field is the way in which FM stereo > was finessed in such a > way as to not break existing mono receivers. Would have been easy to jus= t > toss it > and make everybody buy new gear, but I prefer the more elegant solution. > Yep. Metcalfe's Law -- adding too and improving on the past; makes more people happy. Yep, it is sometimes 'harder ' for the developer and some compromises do result. But the result is a bigger pie and happier group in total. Think of the contemporary system to Linux (including Plan9 for the matter) -- which were 'better' and which are we still using. Its not that there are not good ideas. The 'better than' argument fails when the difference ('betterness') is shallow and not something that really is remarkable (I like it and use it is not good enough). Respecting the past and ensuring the 'old ways' work is good business. And that is the problem. When you are the creator of the alternate scheme, its hard to not understand how much better something is. Being different and better >>sometimes<< can pay off (check out: =E2= =80=93Bret Victor=E2=80=99s: The Future of Programming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8pTEmbeENF4 =E2=80=93His talk in 2013, bu= t set and presented it as if he were talking in the 1970s); but if you look each of these things he is talking about is remarkably different -- man vs. info (or ed/vi vs teco/emacs for that matter, I'm not sure really are/were). Clem =E1=90=A7 =E1=90=A7 --0000000000009c8cca057b064480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 10:11 PM Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
Sort of like Americans expecting others= to speak to them in English when they travel instead of understandi= ng that they're in a different environment and it makes more= sense to learn the culture as it's unlikely that everybody = is gonna change just for you.
Amen, brother Jon, can we= get another Amen..


=C2=A0
This is not a unique problem with man vs = info.=C2=A0 I see it in the large number of different make utili= ties, package managers, and so on that really don't provide new functionality but do make it much harder to be a practitioner since one= has a lot more stuff to learn for no real benefit.
Exactly!!
=C2=A0

So were it me, I would have looked at the current culture in the UNIX envir= onment and figured out how it gracefully extend it for new funct= ionality.=C2=A0 To me, that's
a mark of good engineering instead of being a bull in a china shop.
I referred to this previously as the principle of 'least = astonishment.'

Again - the argument for doing what= he (and his followers did was) 'Gnu is Not Unix' - but my reply is= that they created UNIX when they were done.=C2=A0 They road the research t= rain, then BSD rode the same UNIX train to start and now ride the UNIX look= /work alike, Linux, rides it still.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 And because it was increme= ntal on the past, we get more behind it.

A much as I&#= 39;m live and left live, and to each her/his own -- if GNU had been a new s= ystem, then I might be a lot more willing to accept that the argument.=C2= =A0 But what was build was (and is) not.=C2=A0 GNU is just the current and = expanded UNIX implementation.=C2=A0 And the so its have the man page being = useless and expecting people to use info in just wrong.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Even if= you are used it it (ok, so you found English speakers when you travelled).=

And Ted is not that I don't use the unix document= s (full papers) - hey I do.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That is how I learned to use 'm= ake' when it appeared (or C for that matter) from documents in /usr/doc= . \

What started this whole thread was Doug's comm= ent about how succinct and=C2=A0 to the point man was.=C2=A0 If was a fine = interface for >>UNIX<<.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Man (using roff) was what p= eople expect.=C2=A0 It's not about better or worse -- it worked and wor= ked well.

As I said, if man had been maintained as the= primary >>manual<< style interface and /usr/doc/<PROG>/<= a href=3D"http://foo.ms" target=3D"_blank">foo.ms as the primary scheme= (which >>IS<< what BSD did), then you don't fail the rule = of least astonishment.=C2=A0 Then create a *roff -Tinfo | info_create backe= nd, that produced the info files; those that want it, get it and love it.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Those that >>expect<< man to work because its UNIX= , get what they expect.=C2=A0 No one is 'astonished.'

<= /div>
A good example of that= in a different field is the way in which FM stereo was finessed in such a<= br> way as to not break existing mono receivers.=C2=A0 Would have been easy to = just toss it
and make everybody buy new gear, but I prefer the more elegant solution.
Yep.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Metcalfe's Law -- adding too an= d improving on the past; makes more people happy.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Yep, it is so= metimes 'harder ' for the developer and some compromises do result.= =C2=A0=C2=A0 But the result is a bigger pie and happier group in= total.=C2=A0=C2=A0Think of the contemporary system to Linux (including Plan9 for the ma= tter) -- which were 'better' and which are we still using.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Its not that there are not good ideas.

=
The &= #39;better than' argument fails when the difference ('betterness= 9;) is shallow and not something that really is remarkable (I like it and u= se it is not good enough).=C2=A0 =C2=A0Respecting the past and ensuring the= 'old ways' work is good business.=C2=A0 And that is the problem.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0When you are the creator of the alternate scheme, its hard to = not understand how much better something is.=C2=A0 = Being different and better >>sometimes<< can pay off (check out= :=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=93Bret Victor=E2=80=99s: The Future of Programming: https://www.youtube.com/= watch?v=3D8pTEmbeENF4 =E2=80=93His talk in 2013, but set and=C2=A0 presented it as if he were talking in the 1970s); but if you look each of these thin= gs he is talking about is remarkably different --=C2=A0 man vs. info (or ed= /vi vs teco/emacs for that matter, I'm not sure really are/were).

Clem
3D""=E1=90=A7
3D""=E1=90=A7
--0000000000009c8cca057b064480--