From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 13687 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2023 23:02:58 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jul 2023 23:02:58 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1C742A79; Fri, 14 Jul 2023 09:02:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-x934.google.com (mail-ua1-x934.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::934]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86D7942A76 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2023 09:02:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-x934.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-79414715edeso336669241.0 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:02:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1689289364; x=1691881364; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=XocOS4wrV+d9kkDRmTMWLp77GYG4z/9NcGhuC+onjVs=; b=Nb7pVV/C1TehKF1yVcAnFicCiKUC2Kb58gQtRL9WZRu1b6HTjzqIBuV7VTUsWLo8wx YsomSavP8ky/dN09NESi4HaFGmtQhSdHPEBgGQtPiHJRMpMdkKY0oPIxLuyPdQ9vQboW OVnZ+ZE3g6XatyGbJFLG7fDbn2hxO5ogLBdYU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1689289364; x=1691881364; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=XocOS4wrV+d9kkDRmTMWLp77GYG4z/9NcGhuC+onjVs=; b=LSSbJPiUeMbTxn0j2gegoaJF+E1k/eurvQ96z304FNN8Ey/Gi4ndeRcMG4kzpqC1Gb /jQJRuZezprgK9hDS/qryFAcQcAF7meJlVDCc2BqfC6Ho9AyEowmdxV1i+D1fjIvc6jO h6rEdV/iMiX0+mj1cMQZgpo2CUMsNbY5tBuNfJoXO2I6uOypkc/9mFZMxaxvePGctq5F OefQWk6mRmoL3JtZ6kEQz9qYWvfbV0Wt7HIJ6qegX3TM17xpVzrApY9afz6Olp/U1JUi i9qK6HsZd3j2PI422f2Bn6U2OWu0E+iAUxcCct24eOXUpat1/uyO/iFfDzTCibFxDfO9 MR7w== X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLYWMHVbBvyhauQ6IPzOwj3Wp5ikCuaHWK5l7Y6TON/obxg1KW4N bA6YiS7Bm+indjApD7haKifRDQak8Vmz5RDDSv5MEw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlF4zUc6LnHcy53ytyrRYnWzyLY0/pl6mMkIwgNJ95wH+2yuE4ENZkj0tB66QHuqAkYPrDRlRaABzmcKwu0Q8Qw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:48d:b0:443:5632:66de with SMTP id n13-20020a056102048d00b00443563266demr1405303vsa.16.1689289364288; Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:02:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 19:02:33 -0400 Message-ID: To: Kenneth Goodwin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007b4ff4060066546d" Message-ID-Hash: 3VMZJMMZOT3D64XWYRVSLAGDBQ4XZLGW X-Message-ID-Hash: 3VMZJMMZOT3D64XWYRVSLAGDBQ4XZLGW X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society , segaloco X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Bell COBOL Environment? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000007b4ff4060066546d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes. Thank you. On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 5:41 PM Kenneth Goodwin wrote: > Would your S database perhaps be Sybase?? > > It is that era of time. > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:35 PM Clem Cole wrote: > >> Matt - I never had direct (user) experience with it. I saw a demo of >> LPI's product at a trade show. It might have run on Ultrix, but if it d= id, >> I have no memory of it being in the test suite we used for releases. Als= o, >> I do not remember if LPI-Colbol was attached to a specific DB >> implementation or not. In those days, there were a number of them besid= es >> Ingres - Informix, IBM's DB2, and one that started with an S - which lat= er >> was sold to Microsoft to become SQL-server to name a few, and that may h= ave >> been part of it. But there were bundled applications for different mark= ets >> (running a dentist's office, car dealership, store, restaurant, *etc*..) >> that ran on small UNIX boxes and used those DBs. >> >> What I remember was that only a few firms were offering Cobol for UNIX (= I >> think that IBM, DEC, DG, and maybe NCR had them from previous OSses), bu= t >> the new generation of UNIX boxes did not - although 3rd parties like LPI >> sometimes offered them. Since it looks like AT&T is naming it/offering = it >> with their product, that is another example of AT&T management missing t= he >> market. AT&T's management (Charlie Brown) was interested in going after >> IBM and probably thought that Cobol was important if they sold to IBM sh= ops. >> >> The problem was that except for some really large 'Big Blue' places that >> never bothered tossing out Cobol (like Wall Street and some insurance >> companies --* i.e.* early IBM computer users), I always thought that >> writing *new code in Cobol or trying to port old code *was not done that >> often because the firms that were switching from Mainframes to UNIX were >> generally tossing out their homegrown applications at the same time and >> replacing the entire suite with something like SAP, BAAN, or Oracle >> APS that were networked, well integrated into things like PCs, used ASCI= I, >> *etc*. - *i.e*. using the replacement as the time to really upgrade >> their entire back office and possibly moving away from Big Blue based - >> which was not cost-effective (particularly for smaller firms). Another >> point was the Big 8 accounting firms started offering services that used >> the minis and UNIX boxes with SAP/BAAN/Oracle APS). Finally, I may miss >> remembering WRT to LPR-Cobol, but it was similar to today's Java in that= it >> compiled into an interpreter. Plus, the impression I always had was tha= t >> it was not designed for practical large-scale use or performance. >> >> BTW: this is a different behavior from the scientific world. From mini >> to supercomputers, in most cases, scientific users could not toss out th= eir >> scientific computing tools and replace them with COTS alternatives (*i.e= *., >> no firm like SAP, BAAN or Oracle providing "packaged" solutions for a ba= nk >> or business). But since most of the production apps being used came with >> sources or the few that were commercial (Cadum, CATIA, Ansys *etc*..), >> it was possible to recompile and move things - so people did or the IVSs >> did. Even today, as one of my former colleagues put it, any sr computer >> system manager that ignores Fortran will eventually get fired for >> incompetence as it is still #1. >> =E1=90=A7 >> =E1=90=A7 >> >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 3:02=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS wrote: >> >>> Reading through [1], there are documents offered by AT&T for the "Level >>> II COBOL" system, which some further research indicates is a product fr= om >>> Convergent (same folks as the UNIX PC.) There's also the LPI-COBOL whi= ch >>> appears to be a Language Processor Inc. product. >>> >>> Are these the earliest AT&T endorsed COBOL solutions for UNIX or were >>> there other efforts either promoted by Bell or even perhaps developed >>> locally that were in any use before this version? Or otherwise is ther= e >>> any other family of ubiquitous UNIX COBOL tools that was in use in the = 70s >>> and early 80s, before the timeframe of this document? >>> >>> Additionally is anyone aware of any surviving code or binaries of eithe= r >>> of these or other, earlier efforts at COBOL on UNIX? I have no goal fo= r >>> this information in mind yet, but just gathering details at this point. >>> Thanks all! >>> >>> - Matt G. >>> >>> [1] - >>> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/000-111_ATT_Documentation_Guide_Nov87.pdf >>> >> -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual --0000000000007b4ff4060066546d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes. Thank you.=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 5:41 PM= Kenneth Goodwin <kennethg= oodwin56@gmail.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"auto">Would your S database perhaps be Sybase??

It is that era of time.

On Thu, Jul 13, 2= 023, 4:35 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
Matt - I never had direct (user) experience=C2=A0with it.= =C2=A0 I saw a demo of LPI's product at a trade show.=C2=A0 It might ha= ve run on Ultrix, but if it did, I have no memory of it being in the test s= uite we used for releases. Also, I do not remember if LPI-Colbol was attach= ed to a specific DB implementation or not.=C2=A0 In those days, there were = a number of them besides Ingres - Informix, IBM's DB2, and one that sta= rted with an S - which later was sold to Microsoft to become SQL-server to = name a few, and that may have been part of it.=C2=A0 But there were bundled= applications for different markets (running a dentist's office, car de= alership, store, restaurant, etc..) that ran on small UNIX boxes and= used those DBs.

What I remember was that only a few f= irms were offering Cobol for UNIX (I think that IBM, DEC, DG, and maybe NCR= had them from previous=C2=A0OSses), but the new generation of UNIX boxes d= id not - although 3rd parties like LPI sometimes offered them.=C2=A0 Since = it looks like AT&T is naming it/offering it with their product, that is= another example=C2=A0of AT&T management missing the market.=C2=A0 AT&a= mp;T's management (Charlie Brown) was interested in going after IBM and= probably thought that Cobol was important if they sold to IBM shops.
=

The problem was that except for some really large 'Big = Blue' places that never bothered tossing out Cobol (like Wall Street an= d some insurance companies -- i.e. early IBM computer users), I alwa= ys thought that writing new code in Cobol or trying to port old code = was not done that often because the firms that were switching from = Mainframes to UNIX were generally tossing out their homegrown applications = at the same time and replacing the entire suite with something like SAP, BA= AN, or Oracle APS=C2=A0that were networked, well integrated into things lik= e PCs, used ASCII, etc.=C2=A0- i.e. using the replacement as = the time to really upgrade their entire back office and possibly moving awa= y from Big Blue based - which was not cost-effective (particularly for smal= ler firms).=C2=A0 =C2=A0Another point was the Big 8 accounting firms starte= d offering services that=C2=A0used the minis and UNIX boxes with SAP/BAAN/O= racle APS).=C2=A0 Finally, I may miss remembering WRT to LPR-Cobol, but it = was similar to today's Java in that it compiled into an interpreter.=C2= =A0 Plus, the impression I always had was that it was not designed for prac= tical large-scale use or performance.

BTW: this is a d= ifferent behavior from the scientific world.=C2=A0 From mini to supercomput= ers, in most cases, scientific users could not toss out their scientific=C2= =A0computing tools and replace them with COTS alternatives (i.e., no= firm like SAP, BAAN or Oracle providing "packaged" solutions for= a bank or business). But since most of the=C2=A0production apps being used= came with sources or the few that were commercial (Cadum, CATIA, Ansys = etc..), it was possible to recompile and move things - so people did or= the IVSs did.=C2=A0 Even today, as one of my former colleagues=C2=A0put it= , any sr computer system manager that ignores Fortran will eventually get f= ired for incompetence as it is still=C2=A0#1.=C2=A0=C2=A0
3D""=E1=90= =A7
3D""=E1=90=A7

On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 3:02=E2=80= =AFPM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
Reading through [1], there are document= s offered by AT&T for the "Level II COBOL" system, which some= further research indicates is a product from Convergent (same folks as the= UNIX PC.)=C2=A0 There's also the LPI-COBOL which appears to be a Langu= age Processor Inc. product.

Are these the earliest AT&T endorsed COBOL solutions for UNIX or were t= here other efforts either promoted by Bell or even perhaps developed locall= y that were in any use before this version?=C2=A0 Or otherwise is there any= other family of ubiquitous UNIX COBOL tools that was in use in the 70s and= early 80s, before the timeframe of this document?

Additionally is anyone aware of any surviving code or binaries of either of= these or other, earlier efforts at COBOL on UNIX?=C2=A0 I have no goal for= this information in mind yet, but just gathering details at this point.=C2= =A0 Thanks all!

- Matt G.

[1] - http://bitsav= ers.org/pdf/att/000-111_ATT_Documentation_Guide_Nov87.pdf
-- <= br>
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
--0000000000007b4ff4060066546d--