From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 22290 invoked from network); 28 May 2020 13:47:31 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 May 2020 13:47:31 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8950B9C919; Thu, 28 May 2020 23:47:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413CA9C5E9; Thu, 28 May 2020 23:47:04 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="gwHHXFzK"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 1460A9C5E9; Thu, 28 May 2020 23:47:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f171.google.com (mail-qt1-f171.google.com [209.85.160.171]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 881F79C194 for ; Thu, 28 May 2020 23:47:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f171.google.com with SMTP id y1so16478qtv.12 for ; Thu, 28 May 2020 06:47:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CPvycO82HcIzjO71nLpa3XNcThI8PAUpkUTVwL4gk/8=; b=gwHHXFzKKvuXJjdrdKnW0CU+AC0EOsINwuCFoU+SIAF83ydbEIgD/1WznkO+LjXkSZ gYTQrD9Ccc4DQ6jGtfLTI+y8CQhkb0ZerflhI/zhhVKetMqn55zbu3/JYiPaQ9WzLh9R DKFHISUKB/KdnOsXmbW3VxGlmZ3yYTdeG9bLM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CPvycO82HcIzjO71nLpa3XNcThI8PAUpkUTVwL4gk/8=; b=h01cUWgjqbfNidRaf9zMzqFNl7fr7/GkrNrvvP3n3H6IPY9s9NTnXV2yVpxry/bR6+ +CJc/6jbF+v+4nMcAupDNnxLbuOOJaQu5eOKBwIsQ3yEfX+bxq2nEd/FsChB6zLLFIKn HlfVWCM/CzkP8oYgL2gIo8VyPSUUIkaGye4v5a+RkXoT2xLJHL9nog1gSJqpxiLdWrET 7iAcmnmVycyas+8eAbJFT2Su+26brU/3xZD1H1UnFjP8yfVja5Kh4LZ01giXg5ZnOq1E l+zANmcooJ25lt6Tez+aZ/Oo2KbPwd3VtiG1cWZDw/bKohHYJiiUB9qC63NlwVHa/reT LiHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533DX1rFdscTXgKhzgch9WLWIAMJnZJVNfew3EiVspXmH3jFR9dy TQ1bPHkNSudjac8RJnLHNkNgDuHFJjVo9ETdhjhgs5eA0kI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzSiIMPR6TlTc3WmqpjrAKRaGYwThgWvZTSqBzMWw2/nmyKx0mX8pJAbriCyYS3pbf6GtEb9kmIgJChBzBNNC4= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7092:: with SMTP id y18mr3353591qto.354.1590673620519; Thu, 28 May 2020 06:47:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1jeHk5-5LM-00@marmaro.de> In-Reply-To: <1jeHk5-5LM-00@marmaro.de> From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 09:46:34 -0400 Message-ID: To: markus schnalke Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ae31705a6b59029" Subject: Re: [TUHS] fmt(1): history, POSIX, -t, -c X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000001ae31705a6b59029 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 8:41 AM markus schnalke wrote: > A look into the description and rationale sections of POSIX, which > often provides helpful information, was not possible because fmt(1) > is not part of POSIX (only fold(1) is). Why's that? > It was not in SVID and nobody from the BSD side of the war at the time felt it was worth arguing about to add it to the standard. Basically, during the writing of both POSIX.1 and .2, there was huge pressure from AT&T to just take the SVID and try to make that the standard. In fact, IIRC, Jim Issack got AT&T to release the copyright on it and we used some of the original AT&T troff source. But many of us pushed back saying even if there was a marketing campaign: "AT&T UNIX=C2=AE, Consider it Standard" it was not hardly so. And many BS= D additions (improvements) were taken into the standard. For instance, sockets was the prefered to networking interface, although to save face AT&T managed to get the TLI allowed in as an alternative to sockets in the first version of the network specification. (Funny, I don't know of a FIPS-151 registered UNIX implementation that used TLI). Remember, the primary driver for the POSIX work was for the ISV's - to make it easier for them to create software that they could sell. Early on, Heinz in particular, wanted an ABI, not an API (many of us, myself in that camp) shouted him down. Since those days, I've sometimes wondered if we had earlier on figured out how to do that; maybe the UNIX Wars would have worked out differently (but thats a different discussion). Back to fmt(1), like you, I have used it for years, particularly in email. I usually forked it from vi to paginate my message was what I did for years until I finally switched from mh (actually the hm version) to the Gmail interface as my MUI client. Clem --0000000000001ae31705a6b59029 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 8:41= AM markus schnalke <meillo@marmaro= .de> wrote:
A look into the description and rationale sections of POSIX, which
often provides helpful information, was not possible because fmt(1)
is not part of POSIX (only fold(1) is). Why's that?=C2=A0
It was not in SVID and nobody from the BSD side of the war at t= he time felt it was worth arguing about to add it to the standard.=C2=A0 Ba= sically, during the writing of both POSIX.1 and .2, there was huge pressure= =C2=A0from AT&T to just take the SVID and try to make that the standard= .=C2=A0 In fact, IIRC, Jim Issack got AT&T to release the copyright on = it and we used some of the original AT&T troff source.

But many of us pushed back saying even if th= ere was a marketing campaign:=C2=A0 "AT&T UNIX=C2=AE, Consider it = Standard" it was not hardly so.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And many BSD additions (im= provements) were taken into the standard.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For instance, sockets= was the prefered to networking interface, although to save face=C2=A0 AT&a= mp;T managed to get the TLI allowed in as an alternative to sockets in the = first version=C2=A0of the network specification. (Funny, I don't know o= f a FIPS-151 registered UNIX implementation that used TLI).

Remember, the primary driver for the POSIX = work was for the ISV's=C2=A0- to make it easier for them to create soft= ware that they could sell.
Early on, Heinz in particul= ar, wanted an ABI, not an API (many of us, myself in that camp) shouted him= down.=C2=A0 Since those days, I've sometimes wondered if we had earlie= r on figured out how to do that; maybe the UNIX Wars would have worked out = differently (but thats a different discussion).

Back to fmt(1), like you, I have used it for years, par= ticularly in email. I usually forked it from vi to paginate my message was = what I did for years until I finally switched from mh (actually the hm vers= ion) to the Gmail interface as my MUI client.=C2=A0
Cle= m

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