From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18738 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2023 01:46:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 14 Jul 2023 01:46:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4364C42A94; Fri, 14 Jul 2023 11:46:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9204D42A92 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2023 11:45:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-7659cb9c42aso123368385a.3 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2023 18:45:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1689299153; x=1691891153; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=vi2OrQ0O9dpMt11Th4CKIdlqM/hc2lCavQqfC8UJi9c=; b=AK9nnVyRaH46y3pN87wya7pJ54tHFECWdVwVOx7zb06gRxuv3Tt5IBalZZSbMlFoyM nOXJ3MvqCNbXiYd/Kaw8HDKn9MajXi1I3R9RN3YNIMtPKmU95QWrK4vBQEWrvpRi8im9 q5PEeQoGa5fwdrpqDp1XIGZdDgIT/SIURQr8k= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1689299153; x=1691891153; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=vi2OrQ0O9dpMt11Th4CKIdlqM/hc2lCavQqfC8UJi9c=; b=apUw0XIEvhtAtOSqXMmz1sR/11KY1p573P7ESjWzYPdepg+SkWHd3eh2zBbyX+QEyC +U6mwShGp6ObMt00pNvo684LQd2pdRFqDfCF+Xtm+ehzs0ViNIyRwdylNqznIU92ngu9 lyjY50PtmghjMgintd4EPhV5AtuPGWriboNNA18+sz79+hE4ZQpsX+qWoMp1/7iD/Ovk r5N8RRAbRXVjZg8MfjtRb6lvU/WBMBsImu4nSpAGoKytABUTbxPMeHqvYhD0hkZM1v4v FNOrfCzHF/6A4GKpa5gGHcEh9DMb83g6722mk2laQSEUgt2hoaS9/ZSKWP9PkguA8TwJ HrjA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLbuWl9MX1qT5lKoqhhZgXdDBgPZpxDD7tWDjDURZ+WGY96yRt4k +y81Pd7FC41jJVW7qKHPesKJCQhFD3gN2vwcFte7LQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlEbE1pqczZXLvkbw7r+SzZtB8nJfbi8hVtvw7o27uSyyv62Y0XbSdGyiqFy7UwFNI7DXL6bCwaX1Y2C10qUMGc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:4550:b0:765:ad1b:c864 with SMTP id u16-20020a05620a455000b00765ad1bc864mr4325142qkp.65.1689299153512; Thu, 13 Jul 2023 18:45:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0CCC47C3-950F-424B-AF6D-0F0DC08C53E5@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 21:45:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f6fe060600689b40" Message-ID-Hash: W7PJAS5LFAMZQKMLVHABMFIWJDVDXJMQ X-Message-ID-Hash: W7PJAS5LFAMZQKMLVHABMFIWJDVDXJMQ X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Bell COBOL Environment? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000f6fe060600689b40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Below On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 6:36 PM segaloco wrote: > The conclusion I'm coming to from what has been said thus far is that > people who were moving from COBOL and the mainframe world to UNIX didn't > have as much of a need for COBOL. Since that transition often involved > change in enough other aspects of an operation, moving to UNIX with the > same COBOL applications just wasn't the path to success for most folks, a= s > opposed to folks deeply invested in FORTRAN. Would that be a fair > characterization? > Yes. That was certainly my experience. > > Thanks for the feedback by the way, one of the matters I'm trying to suss > out is what a typical COBOL environment on UNIX would've looked like back > when, and what it sounds like is a COBOL environment on UNIX was anything > but typical. > I think that is fair. There were likely multiple reasons why that path started must likely because Unix was rooted in the CS research and the engineering communities which was pretty far from what traditional production Business/COBOL shops did at the time. By the time business folks started to notice Unix other economic changes had appeared also such as firms like SAP/BAAN/Oracle, plus Im not sure the big8 in those days could spell Unix so business folks didn=E2=80=99t have a reason to pay atte= ntion. Clem > > - Matt G. > ------- Original Message ------- > > On Thursday, July 13th, 2023 at 2:42 PM, Jon Forrest > wrote: > > You=E2=80=99re thinking of Sybase. That=E2=80=99s where the name =E2=80= =9CSqlServer=E2=80=9D came from. > Sybase sold a source code license to Microsoft that included the right to > use the name. > > (I was a developer at Sybase in the VMS group in the late 1980s and early > 1990s) > > Jon > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 13, 2023, at 1:35 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > Matt - I never had direct (user) experience with it. Ireleases. Also, I > do not remember if LPI-Colbol was attached to a specific DB implementatio= n > or not. In those days, there were a number of them besides Ingres - > Informix, IBM's DB2, and one that started with an S - which later was sol= d > to Microsoft to become SQL-server to name a few, and that may have been > part of it. > > > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual --000000000000f6fe060600689b40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Below

On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 6:36 PM segaloco <= segaloco@protonmail.com> = wrote:
The conclusion I'm = coming to from what has been said thus far is that people who were moving f= rom COBOL and the mainframe world to UNIX didn't have as much of a need= for COBOL.=C2=A0 Since that transition often involved change in enough oth= er aspects of an operation, moving to UNIX with the same COBOL applications= just wasn't the path to success for most folks, as opposed to folks de= eply invested in FORTRAN.=C2=A0 Would that be a fair characterization?


Yes. That was certainly my experience.

Thanks for the feedback b= y the way, one of the matters I'm trying to suss out is what a typical = COBOL environment on UNIX would've looked like back when, and what it s= ounds like is a COBOL environment on UNIX was anything but typical.
I think that is fair.=C2=A0 There were likely = multiple reasons why that path started must likely because Unix was rooted = in the CS research and the engineering communities which was pretty far fro= m what traditional production Business/COBOL shops did at the time.=C2=A0 B= y the time business folks started to notice Unix other economic changes had= appeared also such as firms like SAP/BAAN/Oracle, plus Im not sure the big= 8 in those days could spell Unix so business folks didn=E2=80=99t have a re= ason to pay attention.=C2=A0

Clem

- Matt G.
------- Original Message -------

On Thursday, July 13th, 2023 at 2:42 PM, Jon Forrest <nobozo@gmail.com> wrote:=

You=E2=80=99re thinking of Sybase. That=E2=80=99s where the nam= e =E2=80=9CSqlServer=E2=80=9D came from. Sybase sold a source code license = to Microsoft that included the right to use the name.

(I= was a developer at Sybase in the VMS group in the late 1980s and early 199= 0s)

Jon=C2=A0

Sent from my= iPhone

On Jul 13, 2023= , at 1:35 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Matt - I never had = direct (user) experience=C2=A0with it.=C2=A0 Ireleases. Also, I do not reme= mber if LPI-Colbol was attached to a specific DB implementation or not.=C2= =A0 In those days, there were a number of them besides Ingres - Informix, I= BM's DB2, and one that started with an S - which later was sold to Micr= osoft to become SQL-server to name a few, and that may have been part of it= .=C2=A0

-= -
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
--000000000000f6fe060600689b40--