From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 20577 invoked from network); 29 May 2020 16:12:53 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 May 2020 16:12:53 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 687C99CA4A; Sat, 30 May 2020 02:12:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 731079C863; Sat, 30 May 2020 02:12:35 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="fi5JUfJV"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 597239C863; Sat, 30 May 2020 02:12:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f194.google.com (mail-qt1-f194.google.com [209.85.160.194]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 338599C1C8 for ; Sat, 30 May 2020 02:12:33 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f194.google.com with SMTP id w90so2333921qtd.8 for ; Fri, 29 May 2020 09:12:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4prgqFAtI2cHtGVEHlFRWPInibJfy7NrCbZ2JNkaJag=; b=fi5JUfJVTj5cYQZyjrseCEQ7x2gZGyM2geAjkSMhGlAvzLe4b0V2XipBNBY18EyTnW 4XO9IqOTY2LkK4ntzRdS2VziATy45LjLZYtYd59EpBD52c28YxmRtPqajhhjV+tAy5O5 wbJr6g9dRTM1pGDDSS1QL5GDsCaSi9oKW7RVI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4prgqFAtI2cHtGVEHlFRWPInibJfy7NrCbZ2JNkaJag=; b=IAxCDTeVmd+2uAK7ewKQ3DYtQGfupuKeWIE3LUJ8/yDSpdcoGQI6wv9rUYdIOx3fUG 1Ucf8EegyOlF5JcxCz4siCFkOeeziYu+DQH9CJZYPlzNLFWq1GyEKDiuoLW8Lf+4rHc3 dJT4UnDDEKBH6bTLPa8nN8LQ/Ao6JwwQUii7jm6gS5v724+32EUcLi6rQxyIIc/NuU+D YWjyvkQuDzUMW8+FxcSToa4pj+EF1j93mVh7XXp6Q4wMhvrBot9qs2D4+gxq57aXBcSC Yrx7r+VpRZklQImAnj7g/7obSCCrz6GWMkoJHpQBxihjw9BzAkjOXs+HWvFMGGxJ+ixI tmSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530AjcNNSfxeEjJRVVC+lrzvEYVoi6uKTo4jdjvx442OeJysogOH WX+B0NTlY9xCpK0g5fVW61e406QD2m4Hyk8YOdgfOw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy2zJCRn2QmSWYYQo/a3uTcJ7oHbUpdY8syIRuGhcSnhAF54WOhg1Wy8sewy47qn0ldGv/Mxylkda2FsETOKSI= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:3f70:: with SMTP id w45mr9670832qtk.253.1590768752081; Fri, 29 May 2020 09:12:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1jeHk5-5LM-00@marmaro.de> <20200529001853.GB27423@eureka.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 12:12:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000634f6a05a6cbb636" Subject: Re: [TUHS] fmt(1): history, POSIX, -t, -c X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000634f6a05a6cbb636 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The beer is well beyond the 'suck point' and it's time to throw it out. On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:43 AM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 7:40 AM Clem Cole wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 1:11 AM Michael Stiller via TUHS < >> tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote: >> >>> It is also included in 2.9BSD, or was it backported: >>> >> Just recompiled. I don't think this was one he had to make any changes >> too. As Mary Ann and I said, Kurt wrote as part of the UCB Mail package >> [which includes delivermail(8) - which was the moral parent to >> sendmail(8)]. >> >> The whole key is that Keith did not have a Vax at the Math department >> (they had an 11/70 with max memory) and wanted all of the cool programs >> that were being created on the Vax. Remember, VM is automatic overlays. >> So first with the kernel, and then later with user code, larger and larger >> programs were enabled and many of the programs for the Vax migrated to the >> PDP-11, as people ran out of address space (IIRC: one the first user >> programs that needed to use overlays was ex/vi. Again, as I recall the >> original wnj version by then was such a mess, getting a new/cleaner code >> base was a large impetus for Keith to start writing nvi). >> >> Anyway, many smaller programs 'just worked' and the original fmt(1) >> command was pretty simple. As Doug so wisely observed: "It's hard to >> imagine how this command could stray from classic Unix simplicity and intelligibility, >> but Gnu pulled it off." >> > > > While Berkeley arguably bloated things somewhat in improving its > functionality, gnu said 'here, hold my beer' in the 90s and we're still > holding the beer. > > Warner > --000000000000634f6a05a6cbb636 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The beer is well beyond the 'suck point' and it= 's time to throw it out.

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:43 AM Warner L= osh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
=


On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 7:40 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:


On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 1:11 AM Michael Stiller via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> = wrote:
It is als= o included in 2.9BSD, or was it backported:
Just r= ecompiled. I don't think this was one he had to make any changes too. A= s Mary Ann and I said, Kurt wrote as part of the UCB Mail package [which in= cludes delivermail(8) - which was the moral parent to sendmail(8)].=C2=A0 <= /span>=C2=A0

The whole key is that Keith did not have a Vax at the Math= department (they had an 11/70 with max memory) and wanted all of the cool = programs that were being created on the Vax.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Remember, VM is au= tomatic overlays.=C2=A0 =C2=A0So first=C2=A0with the kernel, and then later= with user code, larger and larger programs were enabled and many of the pr= ograms for the Vax migrated to the PDP-11, as people ran out of address spa= ce (IIRC: one the first user programs that needed to use overlays was ex/vi= .=C2=A0 Again, as I recall the original wnj version by then was such a mess= , getting a new/cleaner code base was a large impetus=C2=A0for Keith to sta= rt writing=C2=A0nvi).=C2=A0=C2=A0

Anyway, many smaller programs 'just worked' and the original= fmt(1) command was pretty simple.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As Doug so wisely observed:= =C2=A0=C2=A0"It's hard t= o imagine how=C2=A0this command could stray from classic Unix simplicity and=C2=A0intelligibility, bu= t Gnu pulled it off."=C2=A0


While Berkeley arguably bloated things = somewhat in improving its functionality, gnu said 'here, hold my beer&#= 39; in the 90s and we're still holding the beer.

Warner=C2=A0
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