From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21737 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2022 15:34:54 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 10 Nov 2022 15:34:54 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C07409FB; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 01:34:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f49.google.com (mail-vs1-f49.google.com [209.85.217.49]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2403540131 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 01:34:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f49.google.com with SMTP id k67so2536452vsk.2 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2022 07:34:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=sE+EW3/icnPmN9fg1EQfYahlbLFcSh6TrTtMHWASBYI=; b=eModofafoylW/Wyp9wnnKtEzwFGCyIcPvdWpjM5iJVpkJkziXEvk2ghh6mZNNylmnG lYL6N4enpiapKRKSPlVHPU6AUAX02R+RRV011ttZceMfm47/pj0HKXGfBumpp2/3ydlH ZDlJF9Gue0cZLqXTzdJbvhWLfzQyv5C2rOGx8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=sE+EW3/icnPmN9fg1EQfYahlbLFcSh6TrTtMHWASBYI=; b=oM4WPqYBPCY3IFec2cG4ZEcGD4ASvLiu6S63ylEHJdx4jlv3upidv04cwwWqYxzIH2 kXSEHYvnwZZ+6gPLerjsYvrBTONQsQZB8WCbwxuJQJwtUbxle2yWgBLRMG8qIeEf5EUa RTbFJ8bvk1ImYJE63XJXxhW+G0ske3ekoKFSPY1ycq/XtOumuPDfiBEhD6azPSq/oJft Vow47Dwx0hZz2L34ZuwWh16ZF3iit47J4cgCfu55SoO4lkDn3aSBMLoidtVw4qvViQ34 vLiysCtNbcLBCDNIFZF0Xe8RYsQ75EAeWqGJqh/+QfB521J0uCHGxz5RrB9AQmEWaqZN G74Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1YZVLkmZyBRlGY4iJERo7CPTpnPnPgcKzO5iw7RfCQf3lbGSbz kGXqLIS/oa5nCMkAAHC744oagEUwuThL6TLoWRL97Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5CJiSCQ8xtcoDUxcw0vjZHLuVJmkv4mNF1H0OX/GplZuAebx9asWc7I2mdKG07V7QcrsakTX5A378F2LKKk48= X-Received: by 2002:a67:e91a:0:b0:3ad:1645:cf0 with SMTP id c26-20020a67e91a000000b003ad16450cf0mr26825187vso.47.1668094418799; Thu, 10 Nov 2022 07:33:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20221109221648.GS6203@mcvoy.com> <314617d9-2e2b-4f88-bce3-ec82e4fb378e@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:33:13 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Ts'o" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000048e85b05ed1f7f2e" Message-ID-Hash: CKWU3AACOM3DJ5WRIA3PXTA5YAY2XEHO X-Message-ID-Hash: CKWU3AACOM3DJ5WRIA3PXTA5YAY2XEHO X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , Joseph Holsten , segaloco X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: [OT?] 1993 'Sourceware' paper anniversary. What was right & any surprises? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000048e85b05ed1f7f2e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 1:14 AM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > I'd also argue that (a) the differences between the Linuxes aren't as big > some people would make it out to be > It's all a matter of degree and what things bite you. This is why we had to develop the cluster checker because Linux is all over the place >>still<< -- one famous ISV had 144 possible differences between 'standard' Linux cluster configurations they needed to test. BTW: that had been a developer during the UNIX wars and pure Fortran on VMS/IBM etc days. I suspect they would claim it was not much better for them. Is it better in some areas? Sure, in another no. It depends if it's something that bites you and you care about. Things like the "systemd wars" did not help which I would contend was not much less glorious that the Unix wars -- just different players. In the end, it's all about who is making the call of what is different/what is changing. I'm too old to get too religious about this. The 'sameness' is because of UNIX not because of Linux. Ken and Dennis's core ideas created an industry and set of systems that are all 'close enough that we all can get work done. In the end, at any given time, one group or any other will have the incentive to have their way lead the market - and the hard part for many of us to accept is that the incentive is most often *economic not technical*. Larry's old paper nailed the basic issue. It was use the core ideas of Ken and Dennis - (call it anything you want) - and make it freely available to remove the economic barriers. This is what Linux exploited, and that is what made it successful. I'm pleased to say, that Larry's 'Sourceware' came about --> today its in the form of Linux. But the ideas (the core IP) is called UNIX. And yes there are specific differences. But in general; they are close enough. =E1=90=A7 --00000000000048e85b05ed1f7f2e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On T= hu, Nov 10, 2022 at 1:14 AM Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:
I'd also argue that= (a) the differences between the Linuxes aren't as big some = people would make it out to be=C2=A0
It's all a matter of degree and what things=C2=A0bite= you.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This is why we = had to develop=C2=A0the cluster checker because Linux is all over the place= >>still<< -- one famous ISV had 144 possible differences betwe= en 'standard' Linux cluster configurations they needed to test.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0BTW:=C2=A0 that had been a developer during the UNIX wars and pur= e Fortran on VMS/IBM etc days.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I suspect they would=C2=A0claim = it was not much better for them.

Is it b= etter in some areas? Sure, in another=C2=A0no.=C2=A0 It depends if it's= something that bites you and you care about.=C2=A0=C2=A0Things = like the "systemd wars" did not help which I would contend was no= t much less glorious that the Unix wars -- just different players.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0In the = end, it's= all about who is making the call of what is different/what is changing.=C2=A0 I'm too old to get too religious=C2= =A0about this.

= The 'sameness' is because of UNIX not because of Linux.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Ken and Dennis's core ideas created an industry = and set of systems that are all 'close enough that we all can get work = done.=C2=A0 =C2=A0In the end, at any given time, one group or any other wil= l have the incentive to have their way lead the market - and the hard part = for many of us to accept is that the incentive is most often econo= mic not technical.
<= br>
Larry's old paper nailed the= basic issue.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It was use the=C2=A0core ideas of Ken and Dennis = - (call it anything you want) - and make it freely available to remove the = economic barriers.=C2=A0 =C2=A0This is what Linux exploited, and that is wh= at made it successful.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm pleased to say, that Larry's= 'Sourceware' came about --> today its in the form of Linux.=C2= =A0 But the ideas=C2=A0(the core IP) is called UNIX.=C2=A0 And yes there ar= e specific differences.=C2=A0 But in general; they are close enough.=

3D""=E1=90=A7
--00000000000048e85b05ed1f7f2e--