From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11751 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2021 16:16:52 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Apr 2021 16:16:52 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 504D69CA24; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 02:16:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B0559C641; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 02:16:04 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="r72dcXeg"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 363689C641; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 02:16:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f49.google.com (mail-qv1-f49.google.com [209.85.219.49]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB1709C63F for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 02:15:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f49.google.com with SMTP id x27so4572857qvd.2 for ; Sun, 04 Apr 2021 09:15:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5bFC6UnmP/OIWd9KInXB4cGZoehDsDXYeAYXafFFk5g=; b=r72dcXegxeXERLFUC9tlU0Y+pgz6/1yA/tig0nvKSAMR6O+zgkTcDk/kPrz+m0renS Yeoxz2giNIWsk19MHe86/ZirVEKjCaXHMMaXYJjsA/uqWRK4xePStxgDbgPcY+MoUNU+ SndX8OQygS+DhwNgED/nRO4WQauv3xqwv9tHY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5bFC6UnmP/OIWd9KInXB4cGZoehDsDXYeAYXafFFk5g=; b=P+LLiiigKAJ6s9yQITTZztUS9RNOpks6A2qac1+qUl6I5YJHUclgMovJuMB0VRsAA+ ltZHFvOMToinIz+zsI2awZaH/flOjnijXaIRVpV62iVMbaPTyLXNY3rvGLghGfmBGTfy 72A00EapkCziIqkLREmlkdbeopH7nx4Tl4BuSWDlW/PTlBYHC9NT7soae9/M5PL6Pp+x DTTRSkk+4H7KabKPR2nhcflIiX9f5tXaMLvTgoHi46PcYBGDxf+26i8JQNd5HZJgC4/8 VNl1ma2UmVeH6Cn3mnXDscvK4ftlHQqLKaB3D7ahDjj/+vJY+RIzptIaYCbYl6Oorv3H guXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530SwAMKWmKNiKm570aRoWNT3DTHhA0WvukCM56ct/1fZsj+xhNS 13GdsMprKvxiN66wF86zkLqvCj3moXy5xrCezAfaDw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzMV3BlGWA40G0eK5eOA2zfUi+w4W7+luLnzfBt6rsS9kceNr3Xm+lW0OW3x55/vY/kNNug7FZpuEr7fj6cT+k= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4bce:: with SMTP id l14mr20435681qvw.30.1617552958732; Sun, 04 Apr 2021 09:15:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <584DED5A-1226-4AF7-A191-C34CAFA53686@pobox.com> <20210404022356.GR28660@mcvoy.com> <20210404085520.GA6494@naleco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 12:15:32 -0400 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000082cf8d05bf27e5b5" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Zombified SCO comes back from the dead, brings trial back to life against IBM X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Josh Good Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000082cf8d05bf27e5b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" At the risk of belaboring a point, that in heart I want us to move to a different topic and not fight yet another way of who had the best or who is in the lead, etc... I would like to see the forum, try to stick to what happened and what we all can learn from those experiences. On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 11:37 AM Warner Losh wrote: > > A lot of the early open source used to recreate the SunOS commands and > args. It's what people were used to. Docs were also accessible in a way > that POSIX wouldn't be for a decade .. after that, it grew from there and > SunOS started to feel dated. > It was even more than that. SunOS has some extensions (thread in particular) that pre-dated pthreads. A number of us had built pthreads packages because of Posix, but found ourselves building threading packages in the key of SunOS and later Solaris - why because the ISV's were using Sun's threading scheme. The "why" is simple --- ISV capture for your target was (and still is) the most important driver of selling new platforms. The better job you do in making it easy for someone that has an application, the more attractive your target becomes. Ted sometimes has mentioned the other "Golden rule" about "he who has the gold." As the creator/supplier, it is hard to be magnanimous when you are ahead and it is often difficult to acknowledge real reason >>why<< you are ahead. Plus the people on the other side of the tech delivery (the users), are more driven by basic economics - what is the most cost-effective way to get your job done [* i.e. *this is a classic Christensen disruption]. IBM lost the Research/Universities to DEC which started out being very open and easy to work with and extremely cost-effective. As more $s piled in the market, DEC started to be more and more protective (and moved more and more upscale). To many at the time, DEC compared to IBM (Mainframe S/360 vs. PDP-6/9/10) again -- worse technology, but 'good enough' (and a new growing customer base). The Unix Workstations come out - again 68K vs. Vax (story repeats). Sun eventually taking the lead from DEC. As Larry points out, Sun certainly started being extremely friendly to the same group -- again cost-effective and leading tech. Sun went upscale and the Intel/Microsoft alliance was good enough to a lot of people. I supposed there is the pride of owner/developer-ship; but to me, but the whole Linux vs. BSD (or SunOS or MacOS for that matter) is a silly argument (and wish people would get over it/themselves). *Linux (particularly on INTEL*64) is the current (popular) and cost-effective implementation of Ken, Dennis, Doug, et al. ideas. * No more, no less. Thank goodness it is cost-effective and accessible to all of us and available for us to use to do what we need and want to do. But let's stand on each other's shoulders, not step on toes for some injustice (believed or truly real). *A lot of us and in a number of different places go us to where we are today.* For us UNIX historians, we need to be careful and learn from our own history here -- the Cell Phone/Mobile target is the engine for the next Christenian style disruption. It is by far the #1 target for people writing new programs (which I find a little sad personally - but I understand and accept -- time has marched on). In the end, a small mobile target will be the tech on top, and available will be driven by market behavior and those suppliers will be "who has the gold." --00000000000082cf8d05bf27e5b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At the risk of belaboring a poi= nt, that in heart I want us to move to a different topic and not fight yet = another way of who had the best or who is in the lead, etc...=C2=A0 I would= like to see the forum, try to stick to what happened=C2=A0and what we all = can learn from those experiences.

On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 11:37 AM War= ner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote= :

A lot of the early open source used to= recreate the SunOS commands and args. It's what people were used to. D= ocs were also accessible in a way that POSIX wouldn't be for a decade .= . after that, it grew from there and SunOS started to feel dated.=C2=A0
It was even more than that.=C2=A0 SunOS has s= ome extensions=C2=A0(thread in particular) that pre-dated=C2=A0pthreads.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0A number of us had built pthreads packages because of Posix, but = found ourselves=C2=A0building threading packages in the key of S= unOS and later Solaris - why because the ISV's=C2=A0were using Sun'= s threading scheme.
The "why" i= s simple --- ISV capture for your target was (and still is) the most import= ant driver of selling new platforms. The better job you do in making it eas= y for someone that has an application, the more attractive your target beco= mes.

=
Ted sometimes has mentioned=C2=A0the= other "Golden rule" about "he who has the gold."=C2=A0= =C2=A0As the creator/supplier, it is hard to be magnanimous=C2=A0when you = are ahead and it is often difficult to acknowledge real reason >>why&= lt;< you are ahead.=C2=A0 Plus the people on the=C2=A0other side of the = tech delivery (the users), are more driven by basic economics - what is the= most cost-effective way to get your job done [ i.e. this is a class= ic Christensen disruption].

IBM lost the Research/Universities to DEC which started= =C2=A0out being very open and easy to work with and extremely cost-effectiv= e.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As more $s piled in the market, DEC started to be more and m= ore protective (and moved more and more upscale).=C2=A0 =C2=A0To many at th= e time, DEC compared to IBM (Mainframe S/360 vs. PDP-6/9/10) again -- worse= technology, but 'good enough' (and a new growing customer base).= =C2=A0 The Unix Workstations come out - again 68K vs. Vax (story repeats).= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sun eventually taking the lead=C2=A0from DEC.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As = Larry points out, Sun certainly started being extremely friendly to the sam= e group -- again cost-effective and leading tech.=C2=A0 Sun went upscale an= d the Intel/Microsoft alliance was good enough to a lot of people.
=C2=A0
= I supposed there is the pride of owner/developer-ship;=C2=A0but to me, but the whole Linux vs. BSD (= or SunOS or MacOS for that matter) is a silly argument (and wish people wou= ld get over it/themselves).=C2=A0 =C2=A0Linux (particularly on INTEL*64)= is the current (popular) and cost-effective implementation of Ken, Dennis,= Doug, et al. ideas.=C2=A0 =C2=A0No more, no less.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thank g= oodness it is cost-effective=C2=A0and accessible to all of=C2=A0us and avai= lable for us to use to do what we need and want to do.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But let&= #39;s stand on each other's shoulders, not step on toes for some injust= ice (believed or truly real).=C2=A0 =C2=A0A lot of us and in a number of= different places go us to where we are today.
=
For us UNIX historians, we need to be careful and learn from our = own history here -- the Cell Phone/Mobile target is the engine for the next= Christenian style disruption.=C2=A0 It is by=C2=A0far the #1 target for pe= ople writing new programs (which I find a little sad personally - but I und= erstand and accept -- time has marched on).=C2=A0 In the end, a small mobil= e target will be the tech on top, and available will be driven by market be= havior and those suppliers will be "who has the gold."
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