From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 0781e313 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 03:04:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 65EFF9C2A0; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:04:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DED9C105; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:03:44 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="g0/BjIOm"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3C4AA9C105; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:03:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f170.google.com (mail-qt1-f170.google.com [209.85.160.170]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 406AE9C101 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:03:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f170.google.com with SMTP id d5so499785qto.0 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:03:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8PdKV7SFkt5+T6GWL9/aK5NUw0MKAYjBHPGhVogi6R0=; b=g0/BjIOmZLUYl+KOlxaSoDX10YXk/Lc/apdaV3UTOoPYy52onSEPa3b1a/KgcLC+n5 N96rlnTYqh7xzhy/AQg16yvswKAZuRGskwME6K0EV2qrCiUnt++Ra0wsd7vpR0VuHMad VYQ685VKmzPT0f3m+PUeq7RfMdKenOcmBZ7rbXO5NuLzrM59vLanK0mVacvQLy16TmCz DfmfkOf/y30cd/WOKpdeLhflEl9mwOw+2ltj+EfrNx9lz3LWLkOzOPojw0f/rCocwETi eKstgNqQ8MO2fYeoKRve5UwjV1RKc3lPoya5DxOEJqOKrEuFFX6qispDAxuOqhOOzvUN Vrhw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8PdKV7SFkt5+T6GWL9/aK5NUw0MKAYjBHPGhVogi6R0=; b=mvZzVUpy3y5jV7W35TceYV4GpnN+4OMtamkj+jqWiGZ2k5OA/N5QzyB8e1oCyZn7B0 s1cEZYcWS/Dox555f/UF9TqBeVrBq0JrZAVVNQcJTgdbIjRJRK4QGCV/YArUEqRKhM62 /BFLe2B4xC44nsv6kIqpm3zwaH6VvjR+9DRr0vBLicccTM1xaxqM55oN5bR4YsJj0OvM HA4HyPGhZRRAhsM1ePaA/ThXEUEQ2h0DYQhdXJdonMOrzl8x2a9YwJTNNhQnJN+D9YOI qCfjnSZ/l1rTcwmpjz4r0JnjqJmQjlJTTp7jRroURWJw0mUrAzUWDK6RgKyyTiccJjGI NQiw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVDQF6fDIib85AQB3QmjzyVDMuWJ++rd9GuS6MVY+uujKxKJvhF 8Fad1h67bDD4+fe76qslXFBODDNzj6sJeK/vLRJgOzOm X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxql68r1n53Ub3Vjpow7L4bAzd/no6ne/kjPlDR2kJh2Rpp2Doj3fpFM61g27OUqHyXX65ColxrYvsexLLQgAs= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:958:: with SMTP id z24mr232811qth.40.1579835018057; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:03:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202001240237.00O2bOEG3883117@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: <202001240237.00O2bOEG3883117@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Gregg Levine Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 22:03:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: TUHS main list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [TUHS] Spider X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Hello! GACK! (Excuse me.) Hello! That description of how someone back there used a batch of LEDs and photodiodes to form an input device triggered a memory of my own. One Steve Ciarcia who wrote the Circuit Cellar column for Byte magazine described that same method. He even included a photo of the prototype using a picture frame to hold them. The code to manage it was written in BASIC of all things for one of his custom cards, and it was mounted on his equally custom system. He also described a similar method of generating graphics using two DAC devices and a scope itself switched into X-Y mode. (Code was also in BASIC for starters.) Let us now return to the wonders of UNIX and as it relates to the early networking ideas. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 9:38 PM Jon Steinhart wrote: > > Paul Ruizendaal writes: > > > Ugh. Memory lane has a lot of potholes. This was a really long time a= go. > > > > Many thanks for that post - really interesting! > > > > I had to look up "Pierce Network", and found it described in the Bell J= ournal: > > https://ia801903.us.archive.org/31/items/bstj51-6-1133/bstj51-6-1133_te= xt.pdf > > > > In my reading the Spider network is a type of Pierce network. > > > > However, the network that you remember is indeed most likely different = from Spider: > > - it was coax based, whereas the Spider line was a twisted pair > > - there was more than one, whereas Spider only ever had one (operationa= l) loop > > > > Condon and Weller are acknowledged in the report about Spider as having= done > > many of its hardware details. The report discusses learnings from the p= roject > > and having to tune repeaters is not among them (but another operational= issue > > with its 'line access modules=E2=80=99 is discussed). > > > > All in all, maybe these coax loops were pre-cursors to the Spider netwo= rk, > > without a switch on the loop (=E2=80=9CC=E2=80=9D nodes in the Pierce p= aper). It makes sense > > to first try out the electrical and line data protocol before starting = work > > on higher level functions. > > > > I have no idea what a GLANCE G is... > > Again, very fuzzy memory here but there are a few folks on the list who m= ight > remember more like Heinz. As I said earlier, I recall Sandy being in our= group > so our network may have been the first try. I don't know who designed it= . > > The GLANCE G was an experimental graphics terminal developed in our group= . I > think that John Camlet did a bunch of the hardware design as I have a str= ong > memory of a long afternoon with him after having weird squiggles show up = in > short vectors which turned out to be a microcode bug. The thing had 4K > resolution in at least one axis, it may have been a square screen. It us= ed > 1K DRAMs and was built around a 74S181 bit slice machine. A lot of inter= esting > stuff was done on it; I mentioned Dick Hause's Display Terminal Editor i= n an > earlier post. I also remember a really nice graphical demo of how the ph= one > network routed around outages which of course no longer works due to lack= of > redundancy. > > Oh, yeah, the real use for these comes back to me :-) A number of the fo= lks > in the group including Carl Christensen (who was one of the two people wh= o > interviewed Ken for his job at the labs) had purchased property up in > Vermont for ski cabins. These lots had ancient surveys, the old "from th= e big > tree near the large rock" sort of property descriptions. So the main use= of > the Glance G's for a while was to draw out the surveys and figure out wha= t to > do about closure errors. If you don't know about it, and this is the onl= y > reason why I do, a closure error is when you follow the property boundary > described by the survey and the end isn't at the beginning. > > Anyway, these were very cool machines for their time. I don't recall any= other > graphical devices at the time except for glass tty terminals, Tektronix s= torage > tubes, and the GRIN-2 on the PDP-15 that we used for space war as per ear= lier > posts. > > Dave Hagelbarger designed the keyboard and to this date it's still one of= the > best keyboards that I ever used as far as feel goes. It had plastic cups= under > the keys that gave resistance and then accelerated after a certain point = so you > pushed on a key and then it would shoot the rest of the way. And there w= as a > solenoid on the bottom of the circuit board so there was a little click t= hat > you felt in your fingers. Great feedback. > > There were some extra parts left over from building these. I remember th= at Joe > Condon had the glass shop do some work on an extra or dead CRT, and one o= f the > terminals in his office was actually a fish tank. When you turned it on = a light > would come on behind the tube and you could see the fish swimming around = in it. > Maybe Joe deserves credit for the original fish screen saver. > > Oh yeah, another thing that I remember being tried was that someone had b= uilt an > array of LEDs and photodiodes surrounding the screen that could be used a= s an > input device. It was low res but you could point at things with your fin= gers. > > One of the projects that I did was to write software for nicely plotting = graphs > on these. Was used a bunch by Jim Kaiser and crowd for their digital fil= ter > work. I remember a really nice graph that Jim did that showed just how c= arefully > the touch tone frequencies were chosen to have no harmonics in common. > > This isn't really UNIX stuff but I suppose that it passes for prehistory.= Again, > I seem to recall that one of these was up in the UNIX lab but have no mem= ory of > what it was used for. If I had to guess, it would be chess. > > Oh yeah, I think that you can see the GLANCE G instruction set if you hav= e a > first edition copy of Newman and Sproul. I remember getting a copy of th= at book > and having a weird sense of deja vu during their discussion of vector gra= phics. > Then I realized that it was because it was the instruction set that was b= urned > into my memory. > > Jon