From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21281 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2021 22:27:57 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Apr 2021 22:27:57 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D4ACB9CA97; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:27:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E2089CA5B; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:27:26 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=pobox.com header.i=@pobox.com header.b="FneKPPii"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4DC569CA5B; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:26:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (pb-sasl1.pobox.com [64.147.108.66]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BC279C883 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:26:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-sasl1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF564AE6E; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 18:26:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=sasl; bh=jne+LUFRxW8g2xwUlijo35O/d4k=; b=Fn eKPPiiJ/eAj6gE7pa67XeVU1NH8ffc+6mqZCkSsTj+Uwbcbtk3+nbCW+PGLVzIGF C7HUqfP2oqssKOlWJm9HQbEu+n3gwKGKyVSJVqeefXmUOD4UPJRLItZZ5TD/Hb3K Qk37wnVJXJE+ekxSsH1XtQEqePsI/0LyOgQaeNpRA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=pobox.com; h=from:message-id :content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; q=dns; s=sasl; b=Wyi0FdUUbG11NcbdKgC48GIRbBbmAadMfS sPNcvD9s9gX8nVaK66HXtiAI3WY3xEB78kri4OQNKX5IhTy8TURFV75P5VcSklw0 c3MuVjVPIQ2j1Q/OxH5Ty8paySoZDsoAFNGDkGyFa658Z6UOsLmicjGq585BR3Bi W3ycOyAw0= Received: from pb-sasl1.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-sasl1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569CD4AE6C; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 18:26:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Received: from [172.20.10.4] (unknown [1.129.233.149]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-sasl1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8F1A84AE6A; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 18:26:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) From: David Arnold Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_66D1C37F-D277-4187-BCEC-C16184F08A51" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:25:48 +1000 In-Reply-To: To: Clem Cole References: <584DED5A-1226-4AF7-A191-C34CAFA53686@pobox.com> <20210404022356.GR28660@mcvoy.com> <20210404085520.GA6494@naleco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: C1C8162A-9594-11EB-B568-E02B709B1A4B-29049682!pb-sasl1.pobox.com Subject: Re: [TUHS] Zombified SCO comes back from the dead, brings trial back to life against IBM X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Josh Good Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --Apple-Mail=_66D1C37F-D277-4187-BCEC-C16184F08A51 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 5 Apr 2021, at 02:15, Clem Cole wrote: <=E2=80=A6> > IBM lost the Research/Universities to DEC which started out being very = open and easy to work with and extremely cost-effective. As more $s = piled in the market, DEC started to be more and more protective (and = moved more and more upscale). To many at the time, DEC compared to IBM = (Mainframe S/360 vs. PDP-6/9/10) again -- worse technology, but 'good = enough' (and a new growing customer base). The Unix Workstations come = out - again 68K vs. Vax (story repeats). Sun eventually taking the = lead from DEC. As Larry points out, Sun certainly started being = extremely friendly to the same group -- again cost-effective and leading = tech. Sun went upscale and the Intel/Microsoft alliance was good enough = to a lot of people. To your earlier point, Unix lost the developers to DOS, and later = Windows, because they were more =E2=80=9Cdeveloper friendly=E2=80=9D. I think the dominant factor was simple: cost. You could get a DOS PC = with BASIC, and later eg. Turbo Pascal, for a fraction of what a Unix = system cost. And while the OS barely warranted the name, it was = accessible in a way that Unix wasn=E2=80=99t. Over a quite short time, = the third-party documentation, language support, editors, tools, etc, = quickly outpaced Unix systems, and Windows provided a smooth (and still = vastly cheaper) upgrade path. Unix (in the form of Linux) only recruited a significant audience again = when its developer cost (nothing, hard to beat) and ease of remote = operation outpaced Windows in the late Internet/early Cloud era. <=E2=80=A6> > For us UNIX historians, we need to be careful and learn from our own = history here -- the Cell Phone/Mobile target is the engine for the next = Christenian style disruption. It is by far the #1 target for people = writing new programs (which I find a little sad personally - but I = understand and accept -- time has marched on). In the end, a small = mobile target will be the tech on top, and available will be driven by = market behavior and those suppliers will be "who has the gold.=E2=80=9D I feel I should point out that both the dominant mobile operating = systems are Unix-hased. The UI is necessarily new, but astonishingly = the 50 year old basic abstractions are the same. d --Apple-Mail=_66D1C37F-D277-4187-BCEC-C16184F08A51 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = 5 Apr 2021, at 02:15, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

<=E2=80=A6>

IBM lost the = Research/Universities to DEC which started out being very open and = easy to work with and extremely cost-effective.   As more $s = piled in the market, DEC started to be more and more protective (and = moved more and more upscale).   To many at the time, DEC = compared to IBM (Mainframe S/360 vs. PDP-6/9/10) again -- worse = technology, but 'good enough' (and a new growing customer base).  = The Unix Workstations come out - again 68K vs. Vax (story = repeats).   Sun eventually taking the lead from = DEC.    As Larry points out, Sun certainly started being = extremely friendly to the same group -- again cost-effective and leading = tech.  Sun went upscale and the Intel/Microsoft alliance was good = enough to a lot of = people.

To your earlier point, Unix lost the developers to = DOS, and later Windows, because they were more =E2=80=9Cdeveloper = friendly=E2=80=9D.

I think the = dominant factor was simple: cost.  You could get a DOS PC with = BASIC, and later eg. Turbo Pascal, for a fraction of what a Unix system = cost.  And while the OS barely warranted the name, it was = accessible in a way that Unix wasn=E2=80=99t.  Over a quite short = time, the third-party documentation, language support, editors, tools, = etc, quickly outpaced Unix systems, and Windows provided a smooth (and = still vastly cheaper) upgrade path.

Unix (in the form of Linux) only recruited a = significant audience again when its developer cost (nothing, hard to = beat) and ease of remote operation outpaced Windows in the late = Internet/early Cloud era.

<=E2=80=A6>

 For us UNIX historians, we need to be careful and = learn from our own history here -- the Cell Phone/Mobile target is the = engine for the next Christenian style disruption.  It is = by far the #1 target for people writing new programs (which I find = a little sad personally - but I understand and accept -- time has = marched on).  In the end, a small mobile target will be the tech on = top, and available will be driven by market behavior and those suppliers = will be "who has the gold.=E2=80=9D

I feel I should point out that = both the dominant mobile operating systems are Unix-hased.  The UI = is necessarily new, but astonishingly the 50 year old basic abstractions = are the same.




d

= --Apple-Mail=_66D1C37F-D277-4187-BCEC-C16184F08A51--