From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 8451 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2022 13:15:05 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 6 Feb 2022 13:15:05 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B3F3A9CA46; Sun, 6 Feb 2022 23:15:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A2B9B8B1; Sun, 6 Feb 2022 23:14:42 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="fqlxsjFJ"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BDE159B8B1; Sun, 6 Feb 2022 23:14:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-f176.google.com (mail-pg1-f176.google.com [209.85.215.176]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F0D79B68F for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2022 23:14:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pg1-f176.google.com with SMTP id 77so6423153pgc.0 for ; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 05:14:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=DTJ1diFrPNYOcXuTKu7waxaqslyNgbOLR78qmca8Ko4=; b=fqlxsjFJd1Fkq2MjZGDj7Dw/iWfqOhkfZlLHVK/6FoA+gbmOpeVdvnOTQnLITL5ma5 PlGgD2eyX00xMHaab0Jtq5zo+oz5XJs1sFnLm2Qj8/Zp9EWqAHlARx6p4w31BmOzZoj3 9xKtZxoxZLt0S4pOS41Hc9c9WNcd+zAkefkwCrtmRsq79v6VCARMq7DKSW7bW3PqTC4j OjFgDuUXjmVcfcMHhs6ehRex3FpZBsZefCvU17yzZomzodrK3txxFtWUSD07wFg1bbNi +jj59ckbAeLH2dhJHRUQeLXFhJ3668HpLDzfEzVJsBIuNaNmy1c1wevvEWtigSIagjx3 PbSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DTJ1diFrPNYOcXuTKu7waxaqslyNgbOLR78qmca8Ko4=; b=dcsufauuqHO1QN51bHU5X2LwcM5bLv7EQzO88O5/eMeBEpVGKgM/02b9Kq+IRcBRha bmLj3s0Y8ZrTNBTgDpbY+5PohQvWbrHeRwbQOzYdTe4VbodM152CQvIYC2x1SQerj2J2 vbK7Hg1kvhXY44wRvdHC6u2xhxOQ9aI3Ks+Zq+i1s7XspDaLjRy8eP8hFP+HXpfb0/ym VSurUYd3onyqhfE3I66kWr8yhKYl1CV0IPdZ3LUZV2i8RsQDVPaU8Y3hiwcsmV3P+nIt Nmv2MhVNfLSTBNqaegPnzMj9KMn1W16XD29z7DjZKxuseXRcTAfKltSN0KUV+7jPIZpM xNkw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Jot89YUbqbwv7YJltjYT9NUSKcCyt9IBj8YUuDWQbBSn7KiNX ffW6rjjuTV/iDnzTba65zHMJUn93DPr+3sr/9/UsZbtY X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwloLKSX71QDA5dMHoRFo0U79qhVguj4DZLsj44bhBeC+OzldNAktFA/m0osSVq0dmSHVPOiX24il7sLt2c3ME= X-Received: by 2002:a63:6c84:: with SMTP id h126mr5867963pgc.456.1644153276651; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 05:14:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6a10:afce:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Feb 2022 05:14:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20220201155225.5A9541FB21@orac.inputplus.co.uk> <202202020747.2127lTTh005669@freefriends.org> <7C19F93B-4F21-4BB1-A064-0307D3568DB7@cfcl.com> <1nFWmo-1Gn-00@marmaro.de> <1644006490.2458.78.camel@mni.thm.de> <20220206005609.GG3045@mcvoy.com> <21015c2c-2652-bbc3-dbd7-ad3c31f485a2@gmail.com> From: Ed Carp Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 06:14:36 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5ksuePkL03Iel-LfT1y79Yh4LMo Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] more about Brian... X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Since you made this personal and called me out specifically, I will respond: "In what way is automatic memory management harder, more unsafe, and less robust than hand-written memory management using malloc and free?" Because there's no difference in the two. Someone had to write the "automatic memory management", right? "You seem to think that garbage collection only exists in languages that have a smell you don't like." I said nothing of the kind. You've got me mixed up with someone else. Just because I respond to a thread doesn't mean I agree with everything said in the thread. "Using malloc and free might be a badge of honor to some, but it's also a failure of automation." Again, the automation code has to written by *someone*. It doesn't just appear by itself. "This discussion should probably go to COFF, or perhaps I should just leave the list. I am starting to feel uncomfortable here. Too much swagger." I read through the thread. Just because people don't agree with each other doesn't equate to "swagger". I've seen little evidence of anything other than reasoned analysis and rational, respectful discussion. Was there any sort of personal attacks that I missed? The fact of the matter is, code written with malloc/free, if written carefully, will run for *years*. There are Linux boxes that have been running for literally years without being rebooted, and mainframes and miniframes that get booted only when a piece of hardware fails.