From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f3bfdba9 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 15:01:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 1B55FA1F5A; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 01:01:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB828A1C5C; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 01:01:17 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="imETj7q8"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EC336A1C5C; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 01:01:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yw1-f67.google.com (mail-yw1-f67.google.com [209.85.161.67]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03B71A1C50 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 01:01:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yw1-f67.google.com with SMTP id i73so15628153ywg.3 for ; Sat, 05 Jan 2019 07:01:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=pUJuIQ6OR5G+G4KQbMRWe1ob7GjbYqcfEQcITl4DQdY=; b=imETj7q8Wy6YGqdzgdVvF5dCzJhSrYSEdxrocyR8toeLP5zhBlsT05Sww/fGNXAIDS D5T6c/8ZBq0b9A/6c2c03vXL8u91sfrcFVDURjXM/n8UbWypVNzL07e8YF8KE2Y7AKeY lrwcTzScp5CSWFD/R4ROvUlYgCIj+hndFp43du/QRSe+VmriGk70415mXwDQqnc+CSaX WA/E123qaRkP75ANDHTgS6rxMxnJrBzQRAWwrB4G5cuqILIFUgbYE0VoGdUybkXRtJar qtigyWESOJMs0caPUZDbYPA0q4VHLGruJryiTLWGrVcOopo4OhAY1f+PS9wTRq02kQ66 Mi6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pUJuIQ6OR5G+G4KQbMRWe1ob7GjbYqcfEQcITl4DQdY=; b=MjNAJidkbryMKYTaO+t1z2Gb2der2LxaVSJPOl4PozjBX2oSiozkAAVdHx7ILyKU7T uPIU3vF2ncExKZuwNCmmgPgL2eUTE/RyI5ktXsW1ygTohF5JSsLaZQCBHL6imZtmKL9q 71InYP02s0ej6Y0NgAP0Pjg0dWhLZlsXkGRD7zpaey24WeRSo9aMCIDdJOySZh1SIyYb GFbcDz9SptXGfn2J2xe23Fb5LCn3Aekc1lGsJPv+FDbALdDP7hzIxbYhkPsMFHBFVqpO FssgqcutbcPzsp3fBwUtRuM1uA6bCuLq6t/FRH8KSt8P6OeRcJMZCDIjeGaFhUZD6Bh0 dNTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukcnCOj/Eut0njq5Jn4qf9MjGJeitaFyP1gH5O/KVxynD2Zo2/AV 3beC6mbmewvRe+wILiiIFchMCg2H89x2H9hNFnUpndWY X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7mbnda+VyCUh6Y+WEDi9HHQjxLcWFWIWPS/Rdf1tZQuV3oiD9YKOmyspVQ9WYP+AZcpKDf4dK2Kgu1pHI2hE8= X-Received: by 2002:a81:3d88:: with SMTP id k130mr32146925ywa.438.1546700471970; Sat, 05 Jan 2019 07:01:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a25:f305:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 07:01:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201901050226.x052QigU089781@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> From: Ed Carp Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 08:01:11 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1crIsPq1adawcInSbjRre7-fKdY Message-ID: To: Paul Winalski Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Isaacson v Unix X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org, Doug McIlroy Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" > All that being said, I don't think this argument applies in any way to > Bell Labs and Unix. Unix was "applied usefully" long before Stallman > and Torvalds came along. Not crediting its inventors is inexcusable. Completely agree! On 1/5/19, Paul Winalski wrote: > On 1/4/19, Doug McIlroy wrote: >> >> In the case of Steve Jobs, Isaacson tells not just that the Alto system >> from Xerox inspired him, but also who its star creators were: Lampson, >> Thacker and Kay. But then he stomps on them: "Once again, the greatest >> innovation would come not from the people who created the breakthroughs, >> but from the people who applied them usefully." While he very describes >> innovation as a continuum from invention through engineering to >> marketing, >> he seems to be more impressed by the later stages. > > I would argue that Isaacson does have a point here. After Lampson > left Xerox PARC he set up a similar outfit at Digital'--the Western > Research Lab (WRL). They did a lot of interesting work in the area of > software development tools. I was working in the software tools > engineering group at the time, and we would have loved to take WRL's > work and to incorporate it in our products. But we couldn't. Why? > Because they wrote everything in Modula 3, and we were using BLISS. > It was too expensive and time-consuming to do the translation. If > they had worked in BLISS, we could have just taken their code and run > with it. From my perspective it looked as though they were > deliberately setting up barriers to prevent us from sullying their > research by actually turning it into useful products. > > In one memo to DEC's engineering staff, Gordon Bell proposed a "Xerox > PARC" award to the R&D project that advanced the state-of-the-art the > most while simultaneously advancing DEC's bottom line the least. > > Yes, PARC invented the modern windows-based GUI, but, as with so many > PARC innovations, Xerox did nothing with it. Based on how the PARC > alumni at WRL behaved at DEC,I would argue that this was the fault of > PARC as much as of Xerox management. > > All that being said, I don't think this argument applies in any way to > Bell Labs and Unix. Unix was "applied usefully" long before Stallman > and Torvalds came along. Not crediting its inventors is inexcusable. > > -Paul W. >