From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 31961 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2021 06:38:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 9 Feb 2021 06:38:19 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B32A09C8FC; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 16:38:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC7BF9BA43; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 16:37:42 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="tk3f2aDb"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A018A9BA43; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 16:37:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-io1-f51.google.com (mail-io1-f51.google.com [209.85.166.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14DBE9BA42 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 16:37:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-io1-f51.google.com with SMTP id f20so4145129ioo.10 for ; Mon, 08 Feb 2021 22:37:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=It6RPs9exwDkB8hQyw7NT4E70Xkd/KnOQ4g8dXy669I=; b=tk3f2aDbilzNyD38LWHoUXLS3qbxlAuLpQhH4uQWDqDT73hcAcrDsLbdaIF9U5O70d 0i8sddtNPnAWLyVl+3exOnAQ5mAMnSwL5trgCK0BMsrtCSWMNXNhj5MIi0xJCCo47EHq sLw0iTRcEeUJrwZ3/qDJHvwoFq72PJ2Es8DVL9oNgYZ2xdp4gJq4ESwQGixDBgWMOswT MFG0JMGz8Q6jM8e4ApEXljRhqgmH0dAUOiU6F6Dnq03IGBFSgdQmBb74RY3TmQhBk0Fs idvXhO0C5pT7DC6LUtDpSyWJ8OUcV5PFLDQqeeWLeZvG7bwVTRY5PlYC2f/X+3F0VzM9 6nkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=It6RPs9exwDkB8hQyw7NT4E70Xkd/KnOQ4g8dXy669I=; b=oEtKvnYqTMRQxg6z5F+9r3OFE0NOszhNKbNhlIj5nUrIZ6t4vktGfU5r8XvO/joBLv rIDj+OaH1ap1/Io6R7+tDJVxnuIzxba0H2j4PBfb/Xg+i9+bAdgCd3UAFxdza+fYe3Bv xCZl5ps2MdE1HlzT/ko4IKZ2RZFpE5+fl+y7OGqQURaRRW3KJAcNrcjDf8XS92FP6+9J fGIE977ldiyuOGaFPJwO1+twxVzVAefSEq9QCh0BrewFkFOhyJQySTtGGvdNq1gcb0Jc sskwoSG7xYMAt/THlj91jQNUb0PtBS7zMMFJstvlfWRGMmi/UJGoYFMNY9mzBRzUbYMW fDLA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533A7CcyJu8LafCOu5k6K6nxnnv6Z7jiga6SMg+zIVtSbxMKpS4i Nr+4LIXHj/75FQDkXhqMa/Uex94Xf2+ECpWoHJHE6QFq X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyl36uDx++mEgIelHUyzYcWc4LPmXm8P/hHKpMP3TV9FYQJhHozrCnXICdVsjeS6ASiiXcHg15nyx6jwWAlQgg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:3795:: with SMTP id w21mr20957497jal.65.1612852658890; Mon, 08 Feb 2021 22:37:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:ad5:48a1:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Feb 2021 22:37:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Andrew Warkentin Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 23:37:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Macs and future unix derivatives X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 2/8/21, Theodore Ts'o wrote: > On Mon, Feb 08, 2021 at 10:58:08PM -0500, M Douglas McIlroy wrote: >> > Do they *really* want something which is just V7 Unix, with nothing >> > else? >> > No TCP/IP, no hot-plug USB support? No web browsing? >> >> > Oh, you wanted more than that? Feature bloat! Feature bloat! >> > Feature bloat! Shame! Shame! Shame! >> >> % ls /usr/share/man/man2|wc >> 495 495 7230 >> % ls /bin|wc >> 2809 2809 30468 >> >> How many of roughly 500 system calls (to say nothing of uncounted >> ioctl's) do you think are necessary for writing those few crucial >> capabilities that distinguish Linux from v7? There is >> undeniably bloat, but only a sliver of it contributes to the >> distinctive utility of today's systems. > > Well, let's take a look at those system calls. They fall into a > number of major categories: > > *) BSD innovations > *) BSD socket interfaces (so if you want TCP/IP... is it bloat?) > *) BSD job control > *) BSD effective id and its extensions > *) BSD groups > *) New versions to maintain stable ABI's, e.g., (dup vs dup2 vs dup3, > wait vs wait3 vs wait4 vs waitpid, stat vs stat64, lstat vs lstat64, > chown vs chown32, etc.) > *) System V IPC support (is support for enterprise databases like > Oracle "bloat"?) > *) Posix real-time extensions > *) Posix extended attributes > *) Windows file streams support (the original reason for the *at(2) > system calls -- openat, linkat, renameat, and a dozen more) > > Ok, that last I'd agree was *pure* bloat, and an amazingly bad idea. > But there are plenty of people who have bugged/begged me to add > windows file streams because they were *convinced* it was a critical > feature. And I dare say bug-for-bugs Windows compatibility was worth > millions of $$$ of potential sales, which is why they agreed to add it > --- and why I kept on getting nagged to add that feature to ext4 (and > I pushed back where the Solaris developers caved, so there. :-) > > As for things like System V IPC support, that was only added to Linux > because it was worth $$$, because enterprise databases like DB2 and > Oracle demanded it. Is that evidence of "cancer"? You might not want > it, but that's a great example of "one person's bloat is another > person's critical feature". > > Or consider the dozen plus BSD sockets interface, which if removed > would mean no TCP/IP support, and no graphical windowing systems. > Critical feature, or bloat? > > But hey, if you only want V7 Unix, why are you complaining? Just go > and use it, and give up on all of this cancerous new features. And I > promise to get off of your lawn. :-) > There's no reason any of that has to be implemented with primitives though. All of that could be implemented on top of normal file APIs fairly easily. Also, sockets are not the ideal interface for a window server IMO. The only reason they are used is because conventional Unix didn't provide user-mode file server support until fairly recently (and the support that's been added to more recent conventional Unices is a hack that has poor performance and isn't used all that much).