From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2048F2340E for ; Mon, 13 May 2024 08:18:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C6543335; Mon, 13 May 2024 16:18:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-x62b.google.com (mail-ej1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62b]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F1C84331E for ; Mon, 13 May 2024 16:18:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a59e4136010so994185466b.3 for ; Sun, 12 May 2024 23:18:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1715581094; x=1716185894; darn=tuhs.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=a/1w2MTxLl44eVC2XO154QTxCH3MsXW8/aiBoco8xwE=; b=jw/w1Y7AJ0rEgswd7cU8SCpx6sA54O04zCbfG7HDsRNQypT/TDYeCQPpeIr742vBRm yJD2/nIgwFYGhWnsmcjXCq59TfL53oroN+IpXY1SXE4jHiVB0fpYG3I61uO2UncAzn+4 FNZb6xCNjv4ELMl0/UyAy4pACJpaZQPqbcgLTlDsHzbSHhknbNyYjDA/IzuBQDOvmdn2 VqmhpXHWNnfmbS/VwoTcB2lkMabnaSp6THjGnmYmvMpHqzn5IK1DPIoRvl6lPKXwDT4p Sq/KBKn82gdS1p9NdaL++nFuS38IN4d+f6Fe2GsRMOp0AQ8Gp2PrX4QA7vv7foSLzJL+ o3/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715581094; x=1716185894; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=a/1w2MTxLl44eVC2XO154QTxCH3MsXW8/aiBoco8xwE=; b=jhcqGuE6dTp4f/EnNDDTs7uEo6qqqWT/0ofi1CptS6CLvFMLG7X5X2kZMaSNMLtaME zodpAaqjkjZ8YdiiNEf2yRNpyaGPtnHLfzgyXovF5BZtoqip9zHShKtt3VhQYNyJZ6zL 58iWiQC8mEfdbC4NEbAacFO+AXtMrGua64RVsUcDrLE920ckOy0HTFrFnsaT6y9qYccY 9nk0Frc1u7bR2e3dNnnnm/SrnnTOdXpPzUdtVteukjiXFdiINksVqI96KbwC3Meoqx8i TbjmYBv3IXoFt5tJS4HWzr8A7uAqFrTeGRud+gT/M5PHTEDoL6kcZJH392rpdPnyOQp7 SJIw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyKpc8ZgbOAn+PKhW8fKJP/tTkWXKlUEzAFvIoTB72vMA6sg47O bu7QahSc1s2QiNs8VxeJHilq6tGpGGQ+sko2sYDSThjObl1NYYW774dZVDqZvrfhc6I0r5nzMxg Kfhfl+3rvCQ6/xeF12iJ2lg+w2hmlcYv7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGinyz0mBTdyu6Bsa7gpHajypykaECJXggwyWxA0LhxeVcEF7fLRbHxoVri8W8ZuSGckhoXc3x5cnx543s2l3w= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:bb83:b0:a59:b68d:4604 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a5a2d65f36amr534161666b.59.1715581093701; Sun, 12 May 2024 23:18:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20240511213532.GB8330@mit.edu> <1s6OA7-1nI-00@marmaro.de> In-Reply-To: <1s6OA7-1nI-00@marmaro.de> From: Andrew Warkentin Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 00:18:00 -0600 Message-ID: To: The Eunuchs Historic Society Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: AGC5YRC5BLXTJF3MWIL5HGYSX4MFEOEA X-Message-ID-Hash: AGC5YRC5BLXTJF3MWIL5HGYSX4MFEOEA X-MailFrom: andreww591@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: [COFF] Re: On Bloat and the Idea of Small Specialized Tools List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 11:23=E2=80=AFPM markus schnalke wrote: > > > It depends on what the Unix philosophy is seen to be. If it is > solving problems by reading text from standard in and printing to > standard out, then that might not be suitable anymore for many of > today's problems. But if it is prefering plain text to binary, > perfering simple solutions to complex ones, increasing the number > of operations one can perform by combining small generic parts, > ... all because of good reasons ... Focussing on simplicity, > clarity, generality ... Omitting needless words! ... All this still > holds true, no matter if applied as shell scripts or within the > design of a new programming language or a programming interface. > > It's not so much about the tools we use -- these should be suited > for the times you live in and the problems you have to solve -- > but it's more about how you look at them and how you look at the > problems and what ideas for solutions you can imagine in your > mind. Here, Unix provides a continuing inspiration. > > Only, like with every old book: when we read it today, we have to > read it within the background of the times back then and transfer > its message to today's times. The older the book, the more transfer > work has to be done, the more knowledgable the then younger and > more distant readers have to be, to really understand it. > > Thus, in my oppinion, the Unix philosophy remains a good and very > relevant fit today, although not all of its applications from back > then still are. > I agree, but it seems that most Unix developers haven't really cared since the side branches and clones effectively took over from Research Unix in the early 80s. They've added system calls and ad-hoc socket RPC interfaces with abandon instead of using generic filesystem-based extensibility APIs, added options to various commands that should just have been separate programs, and written desktop environments/applications that have poor composability, extensibility and modularity (I guess KDE's KParts kind of counts as a mechanism for composing applications, but it's limited by being based on plugins rather than an open IPC-based API). The only Unix desktop I can think of that really tries to follow the Unix philosophy somewhat is the now-abandoned =C3=89toil=C3=A9 . There's also = the desktops of the rather obscure BTRON family , although those OSes are only vaguely Unix-like. Both have an object-centric rather than application-centric model with support for embedding applications within each other and controlling them with RPC APIs. IMO, the best practical realization of the Unix philosophy for the modern era would be a QNX/Plan 9-like OS with an =C3=89toil=C3=A9/BTRON-lik= e desktop, hence why I'm working on one. Some of the specifics of the original Unix philosophy may not be relevant to large parts of modern computing, but I'd say the general ideas still are.