From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 43bf7b9e for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2018 03:38:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 86DAEA1F56; Sat, 1 Sep 2018 13:38:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473A9A1A20; Sat, 1 Sep 2018 13:37:43 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=TbzigpsA; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 5FFE9A1A20; Sat, 1 Sep 2018 13:37:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-it0-f45.google.com (mail-it0-f45.google.com [209.85.214.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BF28A1A1A for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2018 13:37:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-it0-f45.google.com with SMTP id h23-v6so9585669ita.5 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 20:37:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=FRWD9cHYd7J5pIhHi6nBc0UkiYeEZBMXPe9StS2dlL0=; b=TbzigpsATl37cX65AaSX4vUwq8iS0PZauOJLM3GdaYC8DB/zgGqLojGAmFdJ+Bzn3O AsZPrfYzc4Nmoz7wAiYMB7P+lOUUveAvhywjQTCcCxDDP6jCcPWyge2+dwYPKZbX7ggK hQKzkTaLjOSPGwbxohHj0v1Q7V107Tv2XqBMuhCHBH1MWW4wJRO4+XhZ7O5ggKzi2SHI 545jLEp4T3FatBAAk9ytv5B/vEKtuqYMYCZv7CMz4MmGdeXcLPc0ZqPAuQXmUF9eBy+a BBDg39WwgMKnefWmDVAQLoUw52q11WKZOMsYSVRbYLmUkJkueuvEYYZCUXa9bbQJGSV9 bWQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FRWD9cHYd7J5pIhHi6nBc0UkiYeEZBMXPe9StS2dlL0=; b=Cnk3KB4z79iLB78m42p8xKIO/ijY+17YGco28PuANC4mCq/j3FP6j7SUbb2O2emBS1 3WSjSl01VgSQhMhefYDU2m2IRfa+FtavFMYCqBrvoKcfXiZc2Umlfn2iORvrVX4XiOkA sJdRoXzFhZSVRVALNk2Cu01ZpIoTCzTb56u8S/lTeDJl2DSjuWJ2lZZb2jIoQWip1TpE nQ25laSG8X+UIfm1ZXlv2DpY175YdeVZntENI6cZFuKzf8WMY7uXCLRmgndGM15PpSlY EhVBsB80M7PAlhgxaRA5Bz4H+FjCBsIzpsjDeEfLLcjeBJC2V+o5gkeZwL8iGm0a2MQs gvcw== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51Dy2fvfI8cAgYJYn5pSGxTth2OaVRSw69JnhOe81tp7GFB/ukMQ AKl12moE0Qxzge6mvuWBKajKYdksk68oXJg2PaVyuQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZCRHOVhE/B3C/Zfw6EluXUbucxvxcDWCls5i3PxB6MUoaQLOjz+rZX7PfreialKlTId0WHSfiEUd5tSv9NWuA= X-Received: by 2002:a24:118f:: with SMTP id 137-v6mr6688590itf.30.1535773059377; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 20:37:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:ac0:e109:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 20:37:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180831215636.-eCEx%ca6c@bitmessage.ch> References: <20180831215636.-eCEx%ca6c@bitmessage.ch> From: Andrew Warkentin Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 21:37:38 -0600 Message-ID: To: tuhs@tuhs.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 8/31/18, C=C3=A1g wrote: > Not completely on-topic, in my opinion one of the reasons Plan9 failed > was the fact that it presented itself overly idealistic, occasionally > sacrificing usability -- maybe it's because of coming from a Unix system > like Berkeley or IRIX, in which case, I think Brian Kernighan said, "if > you'll think of it as Unix, you'll often be frustrated because something > doesn't exist or works differently." I'd definitely agree with the lack of usability-oriented features being a part of why Plan 9 hasn't been commercially successful. In general, it seems like Plan 9 focuses on being minimal above everything else, whereas I'd say an ideal OS should focus on being sufficiently general and extensible in addition to being minimal (in other words, do things in the most minimal way that is sufficiently general and extensible). > On the one hand the `cat -v` and > some other concerns (like columnated ls(1) output) are valid, and very > well understood. On the other -- lack of find(1), shell history, and > vi are not. Well, to me at least. Both acme and sam seem to have found > its fanbase. > I'd say features like history, completion, and line editing really don't belong in a shell. They should be handled by a separate listener process with a simple API that shells and other client processes can use for controlling them. That's one good example of Plan 9 prioritizing minimalism above everything else.