From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1654 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2020 13:22:10 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Sep 2020 13:22:10 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 280699CEC7; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 23:22:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035659CEAB; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 23:20:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D38F49CE8C; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 23:20:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-f193.google.com (mail-pg1-f193.google.com [209.85.215.193]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 433DA9CC1A for ; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 23:20:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pg1-f193.google.com with SMTP id g29so3880251pgl.2 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 06:20:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4G4Wp3ADweIX2rTFpFyMy4as7NWVVohT1XvGxZT8v9c=; b=n6UQdmfAHcQYXZEmPS3V9cotR8zikmjyRAWd6PUypD/fEVkXq9RWbAL3M5uUXZCHHR GhRYrSgJ+R6ype2nq3Ikr2tHPLzqrDBIbF5Oi30BLjh/XRZotabSQDx97MyplPIfWhvJ 0cgoQerPB1XoZ1tbdGMaB9zxnyUHrbc4m2uccq5k+NsINp9zZaGAvKTKIdxpBKczsXLL immZT/aN35IkF2uilzjMtiB+7++RAbVE5iOs//fFgL1B46gGiLUaV7fNJyZCxylhUrwR HTOXooN25ThDTZDUG7GE2bT0Jn7HPg/N0b5cE9OYrkMO4lO2tDRvnGU40tPqzTToriTb 6QBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533EbN4C4RdF6FRejNhVBvA56k9WelhWsoWmcyRK8T4WQnq/YfGW l2XQv6tEs57jlMIyMm4xlAtxOXDMoUmdQ5yzjSXFE2oSwLk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzuYFZw6BX/YLv0mD/VX2wsSwompLi8a+7/ny2cmjavihUAhrUTUUkAsMUPrvX+0m5qG7sXDyLyqkKNhN/pk2A= X-Received: by 2002:a63:1d5c:: with SMTP id d28mr3123288pgm.82.1601385639577; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 06:20:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200927205022.2D91918C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20200927205022.2D91918C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> From: Paul Riley Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 21:20:25 +0800 Message-ID: To: Noel Chiappa Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000320bce05b073a694" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Fwd: Choice of Unix for 11/03 and 11/23+ Systems X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000320bce05b073a694 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Noel, Regarding the boards, the non-DEC one is the 16kW board I bought installed in the '03, so I guess that works fine. I managed to follow instructions for SimH and install and configure a V6 system. Was quite satisfying, and was quite an education. So many lessons in one session, a really good exercise. I'm checking with Peter Schranz about whether or not his RLV12/RL02 boards can run on the '03. May be a similar issue with knobbling some of the pins, if I'm lucky. *Paul Riley* Mo: +86 186 8227 8332 Email: paul@rileyriot.com On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 at 04:51, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Paul Riley > > > I also have a DEC 256KB board, but I doubt I could use it on the > > '03. > > Yes, DEC 256KB boards are what's called Q22, and those don't seem to work > with > LSI-11's; not even CPU ODT works. I just tried a 256KB MSV11-L with an > LSI-11, > and it definitely doesn't work; the MSV11-P is definitely a Q22 board, and > so > probably also won't work. > > What the Q22 means is that early in the lifetime of the QBUS, it only had > 18 > address line - so-called Q18. (Technially the LII-11 used only 16 address > lines, > so it's actually Q16.) DEC latter snarfed some of the 'unused' pins, and > made them QDAL18-21. So boards that use those pins for QDAL18-21 are 'Q22' > boards. > > My theory on what the problem is is that the LSI-11 uses some of those pins > for other things - I think the 'run' light, IIRC. So that confuses Q22 > memory. > If one tries to use one with an LSI-11, the machine is totally dead - not > even > ODT. It doesn't do any harm, though; unplug the Q22 memory, and plug in a > Q18 > card like an MSV11-D, and it'll be fine. > > If you need memory for the LSI-11, MSV11-D boards are pretty common on > eBait, > for not much. They tend to be flaky, though; sometimes they come back to > life > if you leave them sit for a bit after you plug them in. > > > I believe the [memory] board is non-DEC. > > Well, if it's Q22 it won't work either. Both that and the DEC board should > work in the /23, though. (If you have the part number on the memory chips, > a > little arithmetic should give you the board size. 256K and up are > generallly > Q22; if you have a manual for that card it might say.) > > > I'm still working with Mini-Unix; it's very fragile. When I got it running, > the first thing I tried to do was changle the line editing characters > (since > my normal ones are burned into ROM). Alas, in stock V6, DEL is hard-wired > to > be 'interrupt process', so I can't just 'stty [mumble]', I have to rebuild > the > kernel to change that. Not a problem, necessarily - but I edited tty.h and > said 'cc -c tty.c', and it crashed and re-started - and roached the disk. > So > I'm still trying to make progress. I might have mis-configured the > simulator, > I'll see. > > Noel > --000000000000320bce05b073a694 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Noel,

Regarding the boards, the non-DEC= one is the 16kW board I bought installed in the '03, so I guess that w= orks fine.

I managed to follow instructions for Si= mH and install and configure a V6 system. Was quite satisfying, and was qui= te an education. So many lessons in one session, a really good exercise.

I'm checking with Peter Schranz about whether or= not his RLV12/RL02 boards can run on the '03. May be a similar issue w= ith knobbling some of the pins, if I'm lucky.

Paul Riley

<= /div>
Mo: +86 186 8227 8332



On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 at 04:51, Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>= wrote:
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 > From: Paul Riley

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I also have a DEC 256KB board, but I doubt I could use i= t on the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > '03.

Yes, DEC 256KB boards are what's called Q22, and those don't seem t= o work with
LSI-11's; not even CPU ODT works. I just tried a 256KB MSV11-L with an = LSI-11,
and it definitely doesn't work; the MSV11-P is definitely a Q22 board, = and so
probably also won't work.

What the Q22 means is that early in the lifetime of the QBUS, it only had 1= 8
address line - so-called Q18. (Technially the LII-11 used only 16 address l= ines,
so it's actually Q16.) DEC latter snarfed some of the 'unused' = pins, and
made them QDAL18-21. So boards that use those pins for QDAL18-21 are 'Q= 22'
boards.

My theory on what the problem is is that the LSI-11 uses some of those pins=
for other things - I think the 'run' light, IIRC. So that confuses = Q22 memory.
If one tries to use one with an LSI-11, the machine is totally dead - not e= ven
ODT. It doesn't do any harm, though; unplug the Q22 memory, and plug in= a Q18
card like an MSV11-D, and it'll be fine.

If you need memory for the LSI-11, MSV11-D boards are pretty common on eBai= t,
for not much. They tend to be flaky, though; sometimes they come back to li= fe
if you leave them sit for a bit after you plug them in.

=C2=A0 > I believe the [memory] board is non-DEC.

Well, if it's Q22 it won't work either. Both that and the DEC board= should
work in the /23, though. (If you have the part number on the memory chips, = a
little arithmetic should give you the board size. 256K and up are generalll= y
Q22; if you have a manual for that card it might say.)


I'm still working with Mini-Unix; it's very fragile. When I got it = running,
the first thing I tried to do was changle the line editing characters (sinc= e
my normal ones are burned into ROM). Alas, in stock V6, DEL is hard-wired t= o
be 'interrupt process', so I can't just 'stty [mumble]'= , I have to rebuild the
kernel to change that. Not a problem, necessarily - but I edited tty.h and<= br> said 'cc -c tty.c', and it crashed and re-started - and roached the= disk. So
I'm still trying to make progress. I might have mis-configured the simu= lator,
I'll see.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Noel
--000000000000320bce05b073a694--