From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 27053 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2020 07:36:40 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 24 Nov 2020 07:36:40 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 51DAE9BA3E; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 17:36:33 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3069B892; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 17:35:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C92D49B892; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 17:35:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f53.google.com (mail-vs1-f53.google.com [209.85.217.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D5589B890 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 17:35:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f53.google.com with SMTP id l22so10579909vsa.4 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 23:35:36 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=R9GLA+leguc/KmuajZyVA70M1Z13DlFLKm2IDM2B9ZQ=; b=iZh1AW+1UfVgza4dLkH64LI82k7gk7iWj58E75+W7BF8LE4M56pD7wg+FvUkOD+Yuw BnrAYVCq5OcHwJ0/1oPdQNA6rowApHOpw8nG0DtgSfmUyVdM9s+I7T3K2eBkWZ8lxZ6Z 2XgExvw5iVBRXQZ/drwk+Cy/7uNtlP0t+6QfGK850pHlWGYoAUSkgHmhZBjoyIjGqX1n eKeKQiOaH2QME3cYMXEV2OtL1/3Zeeyw7Xig0+7/XNI0xaND1KEmCNJtU3qRgKP7mXsf j160NPjZMP/BvZHgitkY5EOAB7t/iNq8P+v55kkKTcuQrv4EIxQ89SB8hbgLB77NjXpI 6sLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532n2c6OO+gUMxk4r0El5iyEPCHQDplTpYnGyIOSNNGPTYVUzu7I Cl9l1Fz0jSI4jrMVZ1eEXTozR5QdCb65AVAjVKfwnsFt X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8WA2pQwJrlVPsTgLAVIfVOgGfLu4qtJ2PTjO5z7+MTa6aZoCO2pibDAgRSQvIaBU9DnNIakOjquntEamDp5w= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:802:: with SMTP id g2mr2743695vsb.8.1606203335331; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 23:35:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202011211750.0ALHolUI011814@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: From: Stuart Remphrey Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 15:35:21 +0800 Message-ID: To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003d523605b4d55b40" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Package Management X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000003d523605b4d55b40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" "When I was managing SunOS systems it seemed like everyone rolled their own..." Yep, IIRC, tarball or cpio tape, no tracking or update support. Lucky if the ISV install script asked where to install it. SunOS filesystem layout was thoughtfully designed though, when diskless & diskfull systems were introduced supporting multiple architectures (2.5? 3.x?): CPU-architecture-specific and architecture-independent mount points, directories for Sun, ISV and local apps, etc (/usr /opt /usr/local and their variations), read-only /usr support (link writeables into /var). Though, mostly just Sun used this flexibility/complexity, few ISVs: they generally wanted their installs to be consistent across HP-UX, MIPS RISC/os, Pyramid dualPort DC/OSx, Sequent (Dynix?), SunOS, (maybe-AIX??,) etc; which made sense from a support training point of view. Beyond ./configure; make; make install which I'd count as build but barely packaging, I don't recall any packaging until Solaris pkgadd et al? Unfortunately with pkgadd came patchadd & friends. They did their level best to cross-patch random binaries and muddy the patch/package interdependency-waters as much as humanly possible. Partly as a result, the early OS/patch/firmware support matrices for FibreChannel were horrible. I'll probably have nightmares about that tonight... On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 09:40 Warner Losh, wrote: > > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 6:19 PM Clem Cole wrote: > >> 1) No intention to slight debian in any way. >> 2) dpkg was definitely an improvement over FreeBSds ports scheme. But... >> In fact freebsd did have a pkg system for ports before that --- which was >> basically similar to 1983 SysIII scheme >> > > FreeBSD's ports/pkg system did keep track of what was installed on the > system. There was a database in /var/db so pkg_delete could remove things > and pkg_which to know what pkg a given file belonged to. > > It was first-ish, but there was some package system for the early linux > root disks. I think this is how SLS started, but I might be misremembering. > But despite being early, and being ported to other BSDs, it sucked at > upgrading for 20-odd years until it was completely rewritten.... latter day > pkg is so much better, though its repo management has been a little weak > relative to the professional efforts in the linux world. > > /usr/ports none the less was ground breaking because it handled both the > local patching, the build depends and the packaging under one umbrella. > It's been on the whole a good thing and has reinvented itself several times > over the years. > > When I was managing SunOS systems it seemed like everyone rolled their > own. There was nothing like VMSINSTALL... > > Warner > > 3) also as I understand (and larry feel free to correct me here as a >> better chronicler of things Linux than I) but I believe that the big thing >> rpm added was the DB like DEC's setld and system Sun had used which us what >> I was refering too. >> >> Pls remember that I was trying to chronicle the basic ideas and some of >> the motivation which is what Henry asked. And that the original driver >> was to support ISVs installs. So I was trying to explain the history of >> what we did at the time. >> >> The be fair one of the more vocal people in the early 80s was Heinz who >> occasionally add color here. I remember Heinz trying to push us to an ABI >> and not stop at an API. >> >> Today most of the ISVs have abandoned Unix except for the Mac. Msft and >> the phones have taken that. And the package mngr has been replaced by the >> app store which has.much great use than any of the current Unix packaging >> schemes. Funny how the profit motive drove that. >> >> Working for one of the few ISVS that do package SW for Unix we basically >> support two schemes. Apple Mac installs and RPM because that is were the >> primary customer base has been. I'd not about goodness or being better or >> being first. It's economic (Larry and I bemoan this a lot). >> >> So pls don't take it as a comment about anything other than trying to >> answer as much of the early history as I could. >> >> Heinz, Jon, Larry you all lived this on the commercial side. Care to >> add anything? >> >> Clem >> >> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 6:31 PM Gregg Levine >> wrote: >> >>> Hello! >>> I, myself normally run Slackware Linux. It uses package management in >>> the form of compressed tar files, and a flat file store of the names. >>> It also has a tool which when run will show the user what's there, and >>> what they do if need be. In fact Slackware predates Red Hat by about >>> four years. (Pat and his CS professor introduced themselves to one >>> much earlier one, which was SLS. Neither liked it, and the Prof was >>> convinced that Pat could do better.) >>> ----- >>> Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com >>> "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:54 PM wrote: >>> > >>> > Things were pretty much ad hoc. Commercial software likely came >>> > as tar/cpio tapes to install however the vendor wanted. Free software >>> > was from USENET in source code, so again, however people wanted. >>> > >>> > The AT&T Unix PC (7300 / 3B1) in the late 80s had a file format >>> > for installing software from floppy and tracked what was installed, >>> > but that was unique to it. >>> > >>> > Package managers as we know them today really became a big thing >>> > with Linux. Redhat's RPM was one of the earliest. >>> > >>> > My two cents; I'm sure others remember it differently. >>> > >>> > Arnold >>> > >>> > Henry Bent wrote: >>> > >>> > > Hello All, >>> > > >>> > > I know I have asked this before, but I am curious about any new >>> replies or >>> > > insight. How did package management start? Were sites keeping >>> track of >>> > > packages installed in a flat file that you could grep (as god >>> intended) >>> > > somewhere, or were upgrades and additions simply done without >>> significant >>> > > announcement? At what point did someone decide, 'Hey, we need to >>> have a >>> > > central way to track additional software"? >>> > > >>> > > I know of DEC's setld and SGI's inst in the latter half of the >>> '80s. What >>> > > was the mechanism before that? >>> > > >>> > > -Henry >>> > >>> >> -- >> Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual >> > --0000000000003d523605b4d55b40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"When I was managing SunOS systems it seemed like ev= eryone rolled their own..."

Yep, IIRC, tarball or cpio tape, no tracking or update support. Lucky if= the ISV install script asked where to install it.
<= br>

SunOS filesystem lay= out was thoughtfully designed though, when diskless & diskfull systems = were introduced supporting multiple architectures (2.5? 3.x?): CPU-architec= ture-specific and architecture-independent mount points, directories for Su= n, ISV and local apps, etc (/usr /opt /usr/local and their variations), rea= d-only /usr support (link writeables into /var).
Though, mostly just Sun used this flexibility/comp= lexity, few ISVs: they generally wanted their installs to be consistent acr= oss HP-UX, MIPS RISC/os, Pyramid dualPort DC/OSx, Sequent (Dynix?), SunOS, = (maybe-AIX??,) etc; which made sense from a support training point of view.=


Beyond ./configure; make; make install which I'd count as build bu= t barely packaging, I don't recall any packaging until Solaris pkgadd e= t al?

Unfortunately with= pkgadd came patchadd & friends.
They did their = level best to cross-patch random binaries and muddy the patch/package inter= dependency-waters as much as humanly possible.

<= /div>
Partly as a result, the early OS/patch/firmware supp= ort matrices for FibreChannel were horrible.
I'l= l probably have nightmares about that tonight...

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, 09:40 Warner Losh, <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:


On Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 6:19 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.= com> wrote:
1) No intention to slight debian in any way. =C2=A0
2) dpkg was definitely an improvement over FreeBSds ports scheme. But... = In fact freebsd did have a pkg system for ports before that --- which was b= asically similar to 1983 SysIII scheme=C2=A0
=

FreeBSD's ports/pkg syste= m did keep track of what was installed on the system. There was a database = in /var/db so pkg_delete could remove things and pkg_which to know what pkg= a given file belonged to.

It was first-ish, but there was some package system for the early linux = root disks. I think this is how SLS started, but I might be misremembering.= But despite being early, and being ported to other BSDs, it sucked at upgr= ading for 20-odd years until it was completely rewritten.... latter day pkg= is so much better, though its repo management has been a little weak relat= ive to the professional efforts in the linux world.
=
/usr/ports none the less was ground breaking be= cause it handled both the local patching, the build depends and the packagi= ng under one umbrella. It's been on the whole a good thing and has rein= vented itself several times over the years.

When I was managing SunOS systems it seemed like everyo= ne rolled their own. There was nothing like VMSINSTALL...

Warner

<= div dir=3D"auto">
=
3) also as I understand (and larry feel free to correct m= e here as a better chronicler of things Linux than I) but I believe that th= e big thing rpm added was the DB like DEC's setld and system Sun had us= ed which us what I was refering too. =C2=A0=C2=A0
Pls remember that I was trying to chronicle the b= asic ideas and some of the motivation which is what Henry asked. =C2=A0 And= that the original driver was to support ISVs installs.=C2=A0 So I was tryi= ng to explain the history of what we did at the time. =C2=A0

The be fair one of the more vocal peo= ple in the early 80s was Heinz who occasionally add color here.=C2=A0 I rem= ember Heinz trying to push us to an ABI and not stop at an API.=C2=A0
=

Today most of the ISVs have a= bandoned Unix except for the Mac. Msft and the phones have taken that.=C2= =A0 And the package mngr has been replaced by the app store which has.much = great use than any of the current Unix packaging schemes.=C2=A0 Funny how t= he profit motive drove that. =C2=A0=C2=A0

=
Working for one of the few ISVS that do package SW for Un= ix we basically support two schemes.=C2=A0 Apple Mac installs and RPM becau= se that is were the primary customer base has been. =C2=A0 I'd not abou= t goodness or being better or being first.=C2=A0 It's economic (Larry a= nd I bemoan this a lot).

So pls don't take it as a comment about anything other than trying to = answer as much of the early history as I could.

=
Heinz, Jon, Larry you all lived this on the commerc= ial side. =C2=A0 Care to add anything?

Clem

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 6:31 PM Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello!
I, myself normally run Slackware Linux. It uses package management in
the form of compressed tar files, and a flat file store of the names.
It also has a tool which when run will show the user what's there, and<= br> what they do if need be. In fact Slackware predates Red Hat by about
four years. (Pat and his CS professor introduced themselves to one
much earlier one, which was SLS. Neither liked it, and the Prof was
convinced that Pat could do better.)
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:54 PM <arnold@skeeve.com> wro= te:
>
> Things were pretty much ad hoc.=C2=A0 Commercial software likely came<= br> > as tar/cpio tapes to install however the vendor wanted. Free software<= br> > was from USENET in source code, so again, however people wanted.
>
> The AT&T Unix PC (7300 / 3B1) in the late 80s had a file format > for installing software from floppy and tracked what was installed, > but that was unique to it.
>
> Package managers as we know them today really became a big thing
> with Linux. Redhat's RPM was one of the earliest.
>
> My two cents; I'm sure others remember it differently.
>
> Arnold
>
> Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote: >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I know I have asked this before, but I am curious about any new r= eplies or
> > insight.=C2=A0 How did package management start?=C2=A0 Were sites= keeping track of
> > packages installed in a flat file that you could grep (as god int= ended)
> > somewhere, or were upgrades and additions simply done without sig= nificant
> > announcement?=C2=A0 At what point did someone decide, 'Hey, w= e need to have a
> > central way to track additional software"?
> >
> > I know of DEC's setld and SGI's inst in the latter half o= f the '80s.=C2=A0 What
> > was the mechanism before that?
> >
> > -Henry
>
--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
--0000000000003d523605b4d55b40--