From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 32461 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2022 11:57:20 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 9 Nov 2022 11:57:20 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16BB041DD0; Wed, 9 Nov 2022 21:56:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f54.google.com (mail-vs1-f54.google.com [209.85.217.54]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04A5441DC4 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2022 21:56:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f54.google.com with SMTP id k67so16352747vsk.2 for ; Wed, 09 Nov 2022 03:56:50 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=YFMHskAFIJQTepcDE9L8/r77rirQU5Gaou56J5SaNyg=; b=BdoVvrk208ooL2AfrAYHqnQ61hWQJKmlfzOCYbwt9Yq7BAPhK8HAhnTywmsz866Bgj H4C7m7961zpxoFu7ZlP7vlqjMmHuCfaxkGnR5D7Txh5zYQupFhEXLAl/8SZv5GyA6HTG 1KXQSeGc5AEIzRanGP9cykYiY2c1nSd2HGVlh4Zf8wGsxJsqYdgXGkNycTLTY8wbw/73 sO46QL+4J7u+LwQekDCCFnkLPuk1ysI59acnlkhtv5CnWHVYlLCM3Z3ZSA4PScv/EC0l KrGhah7g6mjxKS5fecltNDZq0AaaAHEXHBBU7Ins72qP0LE8EkmQZJfimrsny8Al8n50 O/1w== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1ila1phJLywSHgjkXExCTZp1euEkjCZNr6fgPq20oOPZIdO5hX qOOtqQEYFhN2PvXOFnuT/9IO7t+/cwe8SsUpRlg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM44BzL3YKXbPExjg4fV71p5GNELUHgX7wiiGW89gXtzFvgTMQ0oJMp6rFQIDyjb36t2gSGPs/zv/ngNd6yQjuE= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ec19:0:b0:3ad:8a23:736a with SMTP id d25-20020a67ec19000000b003ad8a23736amr14580173vso.75.1667995009925; Wed, 09 Nov 2022 03:56:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <992562BA-E21F-4542-A50B-6CFE8F7ACE86@planet.nl> <20221011134842.GA11780@mcvoy.com> <20221011195447.GI11780@mcvoy.com> <8583490b-c7cc-4633-b506-2f16335fd3e2@home.arpa> <20221011201025.GJ11780@mcvoy.com> <513e8a46-bd31-420a-bfdf-b59451f89c8d@home.arpa> <0db171e4-7efe-8c00-bb30-a6f914cf9911@technologists.com> <29942374-F162-43EE-9F65-D51C79B4D7B4@canb.auug.org.au> In-Reply-To: <29942374-F162-43EE-9F65-D51C79B4D7B4@canb.auug.org.au> From: Stuart Remphrey Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2022 19:56:39 +0800 Message-ID: To: steve jenkin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000dc8c905ed085a60" Message-ID-Hash: HLMBDNH7QCCPJQUW2XF5MBJSHBPH4LCE X-Message-ID-Hash: HLMBDNH7QCCPJQUW2XF5MBJSHBPH4LCE X-MailFrom: sturem0@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Marc Donner , TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: LOC [was Re: Re: Re.: Princeton's "Unix: An Oral History": who was in the team in "The Attic"? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000000dc8c905ed085a60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Never done it myself, but it=E2=80=99d seem the potential for screw-ups i= s now infinite and unlimited in time :) Indeed! USENIX SREcon generally releases presentations a short while after each conference. Some interesting experiences there... https://www.usenix.org/conferences/byname/925 https://www.usenix.org/srecon -- Stuart. On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 at 17:03, steve jenkin wrote: > > > On 9 Nov 2022, at 19:41, Dan Cross wrote: > > > > To tie this back to TUHS a little bit...when did being a "sysadmin" > become a thing unto itself? And is it just me, or has that largely been > superceded by SRE (which I think of as what one used to, perhaps, call a > "system programmer") and DevOps, which feels like a more traditional Unix= -y > kind of thing? > > > > - Dan C. > > In The Beginning, We were All Programmers=E2=80=A6 > > Machines were smaller, programs simpler and we were closer to the hardwar= e. > Literally, like the =E2=80=9CUnix Room=E2=80=9D, in the Attic at Bell Lab= s. > > Admin & Operations weren=E2=80=99t too onerous and =E2=80=9CMaintenance= =E2=80=9D was done by the > people doing the kernel & systems software, at a guess. > And maybe hardware was fixed by the Vendor, or super-programmers did the > plug and play themselves. > > As sites got bigger, work became multi-person project =E2=80=99teams=E2= =80=99 and admin > problems got tricker, while =E2=80=98certain people=E2=80=99 did the work= . > > When Unix became properly commercial - multiple vendors, big manuals, > support contracts, and a plethora of Unix variants - some Bright People > created =E2=80=9CUnix Training=E2=80=9D courses, in many topiocs. > > Somewhere around this time, courses and job titles for =E2=80=9CSystem Ad= min=E2=80=9D > appeared. > > Sadly, all this happened without any distinctions in capability & > =E2=80=98levels=E2=80=99, or actual problem solving testing (cf CISCO=E2= =80=99s CCIE: 2 days of > testing, 1st day quizzes on a PC, 2nd day is by invitation. Lab session: > =E2=80=9Cfix the broken network in the allotted time=E2=80=9D) > > SAGE - System Admin Guild, part of USENIX - put together a bunch of small > books on (Unix) System Admin Topics and tried to guide the development of > the field. > After 10 years, I was out of the loop and hadn=E2=80=99t seen anything po= sitive in > the workplace. > > SRE roles & as a discipline has developed, alongside DevOps, into managin= g > & fault finding in large clusters of physical and virtual machines. > > Never done it myself, but it=E2=80=99d seem the potential for screw-ups i= s now > infinite and unlimited in time :) > > -- > Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design > 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) > PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA > > mailto:sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin > > --0000000000000dc8c905ed085a60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Never done it myself, but it=E2=80= =99d seem the potential for screw-ups is now infinite and unlimited in time= :)

Indeed!

USENIX SREcon generally releases presentations a=C2=A0short while after = each conference.
Some interesting experiences there...

-- = Stuart.


On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 at 17:03, steve jenkin <sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au> wrote= :

> On 9 Nov 2022, at 19:41, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> To tie this back to TUHS a little bit...when did being a "sysadmi= n" become a thing unto itself? And is it just me, or has that largely = been superceded by SRE (which I think of as what one used to, perhaps, call= a "system programmer") and DevOps, which feels like a more tradi= tional Unix-y kind of thing?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Dan C.

In The Beginning, We were All Programmers=E2=80=A6

Machines were smaller, programs simpler and we were closer to the hardware.=
Literally, like the =E2=80=9CUnix Room=E2=80=9D, in the Attic at Bell Labs.=

Admin & Operations weren=E2=80=99t too onerous and =E2=80=9CMaintenance= =E2=80=9D was done by the people doing the kernel & systems software, a= t a guess.
And maybe hardware was fixed by the Vendor, or super-programmers did the pl= ug and play themselves.

As sites got bigger, work became multi-person project =E2=80=99teams=E2=80= =99 and admin problems got tricker, while =E2=80=98certain people=E2=80=99 = did the work.

When Unix became properly commercial - multiple vendors, big manuals, suppo= rt contracts, and a plethora of Unix variants - some Bright People created = =E2=80=9CUnix Training=E2=80=9D courses, in many topiocs.

Somewhere around this time, courses and job titles for =E2=80=9CSystem Admi= n=E2=80=9D appeared.

Sadly, all this happened without any distinctions in capability & =E2= =80=98levels=E2=80=99, or actual problem solving testing (cf CISCO=E2=80=99= s CCIE: 2 days of testing, 1st day quizzes on a PC, 2nd day is by invitatio= n. Lab session: =E2=80=9Cfix the broken network in the allotted time=E2=80= =9D)

SAGE - System Admin Guild, part of USENIX - put together a bunch of small b= ooks on (Unix) System Admin Topics and tried to guide the development of th= e field.
After 10 years, I was out of the loop and hadn=E2=80=99t seen anything posi= tive in the workplace.

SRE roles & as a discipline has developed, alongside DevOps, into manag= ing & fault finding in large clusters of physical and virtual machines.=

Never done it myself, but it=E2=80=99d seem the potential for screw-ups is = now infinite and unlimited in time :)

--
Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design
0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915)
PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA

mailto:sjenki= n@canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin
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