From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21237 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2023 00:38:33 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 14 Mar 2023 00:38:33 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5E9415EC; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 10:38:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2b]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69CEE415E1 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 10:38:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com with SMTP id o32so12624208vsv.12 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 17:38:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; t=1678754300; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wj7W0MB8bCofG0oixHZRIon/npVH6CJUh+52ay6Q4Ok=; b=xIeS9t6AAliXud6PkCJyrG4Gkft9mvWKeBBI5xCKY4eFisBYfhF6OIMfTlP3Hp6B72 MGftPabm3TaXxMMYTyln9bSIo+83cqYXprBTsAyXhpQvVUxBwi2d0SRlS7gt5rjgY0cG lDf5xgga/CB9xVjce0S1VXI6XBHEfEcjvA1HKcX2r1MyLDl8ddYQ7NUChivGUdlBGqs6 zrn/gJQdxPZ6+81roNS2QshOOzgeFgA042J/ZC7lULOgfy8vLTDS5vZ9KiZReeBEzphI dpHPMsX3x4UUuyjcjCX9SQR5VlFrnIosvQMnFpC+rerCeP6lQViJbB5Ibi5Tv1s66A00 8DHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678754300; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=wj7W0MB8bCofG0oixHZRIon/npVH6CJUh+52ay6Q4Ok=; b=2qSrsquXKH8kjgQMDOmRZeTGDHysH3PZoAh+1DuwkAzqU9uSz6sXWsWG3+dPfhcbg5 bcKjVBYZHFbnTXtsZ3MOPyWrdo1swNhRnNVnrSibtvXzrvq02DVHYpVJ/KgjhIufrQpR 7RxPrKujEs7YrujslxVDYFiI8jraz2e5eXXf3ZMgpTVbieU4vbYmzhBWwL8Ppvrr//3g fpM44GDcyduOuaVs07qPsmfQQMvtvmDRBu0eFACg7UYttFjZceMQOWGsR0ge097h6XTK UMo5yCw2okMick0KMuRAIK9ljEacUqBKbCAZUdtQc3JTIwWsJbW9BPKzlEgfBgwaUwdq xeng== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUxTyhkghWavynBEQZLHAsQb9b8358Cm/IzYTTuHAblUEXwBgq6 cDHiB9QHK+Rz0+03TuhvEtRa5VVGTY4dPgZ/qUtjPCrbbf1Osfht X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9EVTfpLbp1lzLuXo2IHXj+XaA6FBAbqkUuf3VgdkNPnlEDJtNOf7XFsz1IaHnfz1Vyxfdp1PGIKmtUtgZ2F6w= X-Received: by 2002:a67:e05b:0:b0:425:a606:e3f4 with SMTP id n27-20020a67e05b000000b00425a606e3f4mr219837vsl.1.1678754300193; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 17:38:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230310113708.AD55518C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: From: John Cowan Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 20:38:09 -0400 Message-ID: To: Paul Winalski Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ba827605f6d171a8" Message-ID-Hash: SH4BQVFVHENCSNVLEXUG3AIO2JOQEXR6 X-Message-ID-Hash: SH4BQVFVHENCSNVLEXUG3AIO2JOQEXR6 X-MailFrom: cowan@ccil.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Alejandro Colomar , TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: [TUHS]: C dialects (was: I can't drive 55: "GOTO considered harmful" 55th anniversary) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000ba827605f6d171a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 5:00=E2=80=AFPM Paul Winalski wrote: Dropping toxic features from a language does happen at standards > committees, but it's rare. The best case I know of where this > happened was when the international standard for PL/I came out. They > started with IBM PL/I but then dropped a bunch of features that were > either obsolete (e.g., sterling pictures) or downright dangerous > (e.g., the DEFAULT statement). > That actually happened twice. The 1976 standard removed features from IBM PL/I; the 1981 Subset G standard removed even more features. (A few were added back in the 1987 revision of Subset G.) > On the other side of the spectrum you have the BASIC standards > committee. BASIC has always had to live down a reputation that it's a > "toy language" not suitable for "serious programming". The standards > committee seems to have suffered from an inferiority complex, and it > seemed from my perspective that as fast as the PL/I committee chucked > out toxic language, the BASIC committee adopted them. There are two Basic standards as well: the smaller one came first. --000000000000ba827605f6d171a8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mo= n, Mar 13, 2023 at 5:00=E2=80=AFPM Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> wrote:

Dropping toxic features from a language does happen at sta= ndards
committees, but it's rare.=C2=A0 The best case I know of where this
happened was when the international standard for PL/I came out.=C2=A0 They<= br> started with IBM PL/I but then dropped a bunch of features that were
either obsolete (e.g., sterling pictures) or downright dangerous
(e.g., the DEFAULT statement).

That actually happened twice.=C2=A0 The 1976 standard removed = features from IBM PL/I; the 1981 Subset G standard removed even more featur= es.=C2=A0 (A few were added back in the 1987 revision of Subset G.)
On the other side of the spectrum you have the BASIC standards
committee.=C2=A0 BASIC has always had to live down a reputation that it'= ;s a
"toy language" not suitable for "serious programming".= =C2=A0 The standards
committee seems to have suffered from an inferiority complex, and it
seemed from my perspective that as fast as the PL/I committee chucked
out toxic language, the BASIC committee adopted them.

There ar= e two Basic standards as well: the smaller one came first.
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