From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 3300 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2023 19:49:26 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 14 Mar 2023 19:49:26 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38704412CA; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 05:49:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe34.google.com (mail-vs1-xe34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e34]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1813412C9 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 05:49:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe34.google.com with SMTP id f13so15087888vsg.6 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 12:49:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; t=1678823350; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=m2MJaChQaj0uW11iF1NN+pq/nTPxJy28tAd9KZRIGpo=; b=8UX/4DBC1REiuOy+1wl/whwkv4IzDSLp/T9VckzpP78z1ZcNgvHVgkgKjsWGAQoFka g3wHvvZZstgo3IPl53OcYlQ+MaZk+UcAX7ocMbysXUex4eZwj8QpaWFCIPmTKbVMIgrC sy18QJcWwAV14UIFBJbTIkMQd9BhApgECrJBRlFLxGSMrNPNCHObUVhyqc0pq1Q8GoOM Rpquoe9qjXvkCW1lgNPMqezPMAvCW7ajG4AmH5hHw6dxBpk1Et1fP4SQAaUjZBViC23r 7Mb2uSETSQ3vG88fKLbPRd9Vv4OiwgtjRneFGYQ4MY+1pd6FoKqbILp5Yx7Gl7LKoMxO xukw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678823350; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=m2MJaChQaj0uW11iF1NN+pq/nTPxJy28tAd9KZRIGpo=; b=N/kkVBdEnfm+qcUYg8nN2IS3Vgbak9QALojU0d0yt+jWiz/hS7PDF/dySWnue6yhYV J9Q7oKPy+leunrH6+9FiZp/4wVnfe137dGcf9Os/MmjH6G/SCYRLS0DrjnT+sg7yLamb KbLIz33F45ZQopckb6EJJY+6Tp/t+NQbyypuc/zDBK1axHLDC/YkGws5gxUuZV72xsf6 8wvAsPt4DStZ+Nv6RMF2+IWnLMbsqXn3yCV5pE089tracJNf3T1LymFkM0qxQzz+bscG ft+j2jYzz1v4bH+VHFtaJRkFYDHYZ+g3YUnO9JWJKmlHOLi4VkJkyodDG2y/ZenRkCQ1 Ovzw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVgaedZc0sLD99Vd0XmS4nBL6aAuYgSAV+U/a+3/JXaIzsnlNxK vH8zS5lYm6u+Ni561MmDbI6TCDZ/xiq97MRlJmifKzeJ/yhW8Aiy X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+nBd7rlLT/Meriq+vd+39jUxSSo8oqniVQmsfCLu2C4WBBAI7HhGRINLmCO1MU1xm+hyOm7gOaaFls3KeSUY8= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f8c7:0:b0:412:4e02:ba9f with SMTP id c7-20020a67f8c7000000b004124e02ba9fmr25406549vsp.1.1678823350517; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 12:49:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230310113708.AD55518C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4ccd2d84-48c8-a963-b1a3-4b2fe1dc865f@makerlisp.com> In-Reply-To: <4ccd2d84-48c8-a963-b1a3-4b2fe1dc865f@makerlisp.com> From: John Cowan Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 15:48:59 -0400 Message-ID: To: Luther Johnson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000072d98f05f6e185f7" Message-ID-Hash: ZOMZXDXORHM7XWXS4QYOPYZSDONM32WS X-Message-ID-Hash: ZOMZXDXORHM7XWXS4QYOPYZSDONM32WS X-MailFrom: cowan@ccil.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: [TUHS]: C dialects List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000072d98f05f6e185f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 3:24=E2=80=AFPM Luther Johnson wrote: > I'm talking more about where the intent is to invest languages with more > "safety", "good practices", to bake certain preferences into language > features, so that writers no longer recognize these as engineering choice= s, > and the language as a means of expression of any choice we might make, bu= t > that the language has built-in "the right way" to do things, and if the > program compiles and runs at all, then it must be safe and working in > certain respects. > ORLY? Do you reject C, then, because it does not support self-modifying code or the ability to jump into the middle of a procedure without going through the prologue? These are baked-in preferences, and if a C program compiles at all, you can be sure that it does neither of these things, even if it would benefit your program greatly if they were available. Some people would say that's exactly what the new dialects bring us, but I > see too much artificial orthodoxy invented last week, and too many > declarations of the "one true way", in many of the most recent languages, > for my taste. > Since you agree that it is a matter of taste, there can of course be no disputing it. --00000000000072d98f05f6e185f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mo= n, Mar 13, 2023 at 3:24=E2=80=AFPM Luther Johnson <luther@makerlisp.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

I'm talking more about where the intent is to invest languages w= ith more "safety", "good practices", to bake certain pr= eferences into language features, so that writers no longer recognize these as engineering choices, and the language as a means of expression of any choice we might make, but that the language has built-in "the right way" to do things, and if the program compiles and runs at all, then it must be safe and working in certain respects.


ORLY?=C2=A0 Do you r= eject C, then, because it does not support self-modifying code or the abili= ty to jump into the middle of a procedure without going through the prologu= e?=C2=A0 These are baked-in preferences, and if a C program compiles at all= , you can be sure that it does neither of these things, even if it would be= nefit your program greatly if they were available.

Some people would say that's exactly what the new dialects bring us, but I see too much artificial orthodoxy invented last week, and too many declarations of the "on= e true way", in many of the most recent languages, for my taste.
=

Since you agree= that it is a matter of taste, there can of course be no disputing it.
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