From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 31676 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2021 14:57:49 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Feb 2021 14:57:49 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 804C19C9DC; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 00:57:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83F6A9C7CB; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 00:57:06 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="dymV+WC1"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 414B69C7CB; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 00:57:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f174.google.com (mail-qt1-f174.google.com [209.85.160.174]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13D739C0A7 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 00:57:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f174.google.com with SMTP id d15so2500006qtw.12 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 06:57:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=D1SjLmeQmcx9BSMGsWd4f2mDsSlCnQDQiwAGuNp+R3I=; b=dymV+WC1uk1ED9ta20Ltih70oxWvK4rkWaEH+Ezldxijq+1sR8ZG1ctepYc6VBkYsP L8ZG8hMUkRZY5y0XH/qhpc0rk8hbByCXlrHsfLyxVpzGkY+QcffvEKqGX+RfAIEwGBKN oVLbJUv0dbEpDCpVsJZeSO+fk2qpEB2fymc1e0er1z2C6O40m+pVFD9IGEMNV8y0p4NM ypTQMUj6HH9xo6e2qdEo9vB5ufkqzGQxZ1mOx4xlwGJ4E3GtMiIjWOjjPBsFngjFzh2M FR7elAoogUdirii4/A93LFKQ5gjR08XAa7AE27hedBEisdiLeC4uhdv6gjcrP3lLuifX Q4kQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=D1SjLmeQmcx9BSMGsWd4f2mDsSlCnQDQiwAGuNp+R3I=; b=IBWEjApMRpR5WL8mbdKFlkSmC0hju+FgRh3foleqHTXTRrqV5817bGeSXmg8Uvtm7Z hn+Ssw4rJAhWgh5Nn0H5K3YYG+vR2dDJabEzo+bsxkwl5h54YP49ZwYOU48GXkRIU3VC w+NkEx+Bt/+QCovWuEcoK1/u4tq0AVoj0HkNuDwBj3o+H6Ax4oN1OacSYMP8sjOlXxZl 8zrFBzA1CPDnch2Pnn2a4q0zx689Mz50gv4ILbjvrQ3z4YEuHWbvTEMXg2Htk2WlFm9N vUD/TqJBtiSnYp92oeyI4Fdju7Itgrzdk2ACLhctVF7XFXAgw6tUGxuHZl8qm8RaRJn8 Af0w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ocZmcVEqd8zsVjoGv0MabFHTigfgOvNeX8XSGyamQ08o5vRpV ug0pJHI3s70Prt6ihZf/mDEFhL2eMpJA2wH8AhJOuA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxEppg2hNvFygXmr0pMMJCq2O5Ow3GUmjP3W/RIWF+o7dsgVHxYJIhx++n1NuHEWULrqRB3pdqKFc8tK1Nn+9A= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:74cd:: with SMTP id j13mr1285152qtr.83.1612450621204; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 06:57:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202102030759.1137x7C2013543@freefriends.org> <202102030858.1138wuqd011051@freefriends.org> <27567.1612399305@hop.toad.com> In-Reply-To: <27567.1612399305@hop.toad.com> From: John Cowan Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 09:56:49 -0500 Message-ID: To: John Gilmore Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007ebee305ba83ea66" Subject: Re: [TUHS] 68k prototypes & microcode X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: UNIX Heritage Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000007ebee305ba83ea66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 7:42 PM John Gilmore wrote: > It seems like the designers of > the other chips (e.g. the 8088) had never actually worked with real > computers (mainframes and minicomputers) and kept not-learning from > computing history. > Hence the description of Windows 95 as "a 32-bit extension to a 16-bit patch to an 8 bit OS originally for a 4-bit chip written by a 2-bit company that doesn't care 1 bit about its users." On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 8:34 PM Larry McVoy wrote: The NS320XX always reminded me more of the PDP-11 (which is by *far* > my favorite assembler, so uniform, I slightly prefer the MIPS-32. > The x86 stuff is about as far away from PDP-11 as you can get. Required > to know it, but so unpleasant. > Required? Ghu forbid. After doing a bunch of PDP-11 assembler work, I found out that the Vax had 256 opcodes and foreswore assembly thereafter. Still, that was nothing compared to the 1500+ opcodes of x86*. I think I dodged a bullet. On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 9:18 PM Dave Horsfall wrote: > -- Dave, wondering whether anyone has ever used every VAX instruction > AFAIU, some of them were significantly slower than their multi-instruction equivalents. --0000000000007ebee305ba83ea66 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Feb 3, 20= 21 at 7:42 PM John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com= > wrote:
=C2=A0
It seems like the designers of
the other chips (e.g. the 8088) had never actually worked with real
computers (mainframes and minicomputers) and kept not-learning from
computing history.

Hence the description of Windows 95 as "a 32-bit extension to a 16-bi= t patch to an 8 bit OS originally for a 4-bit chip written by a 2-bit compa= ny that doesn't care 1 bit about its users."



On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 8:34 PM Larry McVoy &l= t;lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

The NS320XX always reminded me more of the PDP-11 (which= is by *far*
my favorite assembler, so uniform,

I slightly prefer the MIPS-32.
=C2=A0
The x86 stuff is about as far a= way from PDP-11 as you can get.=C2=A0 Required
to know it, but so unpleasant.

Required?=C2=A0 Ghu forbid.=C2=A0 After doing a bunch of PD= P-11 assembler work, I found out that the Vax had 256 opcodes and foreswore= assembly thereafter.=C2=A0 Still, that was nothing compared to the 1500+ o= pcodes of x86*.=C2=A0 I think I dodged a bullet.


On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 9:18 PM Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
=C2=A0
-- Dav= e, wondering whether anyone has ever used every VAX instruction

AFAIU, some of them were s= ignificantly slower than their multi-instruction equivalents.

--0000000000007ebee305ba83ea66--