From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4682 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2020 14:46:35 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 25 Jul 2020 14:46:35 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id AE0EF9C9FE; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:46:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E833F9C8B1; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:45:32 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="wGUIB7I+"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 12BF19C8B1; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:45:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f173.google.com (mail-qt1-f173.google.com [209.85.160.173]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50F669BA4F for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:45:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f173.google.com with SMTP id s23so9034371qtq.12 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=C/v5PE2x5k/txfsqWS3WT1ZT+i5qu4mheqfFK3aVekg=; b=wGUIB7I+aONPojQ/kWSwilXwQn6VGMP3V9abyXnminyeKKXcComVjFfZJPcU98N5V+ cjYyvkuI2FUUxYNF2rWhcbhUy0ngzHA3DJw+xjxDcSA+rdg+E4poQYyqytUFEl8CxUnW WidtFBZYWmdLQPuCKJrDankJsEUTz2QPJbEIG0Iq8tc138gT05Iq30JqEvv0CF5z9js1 seJH2UaRu6ka2u8qxZPa7kWZyW3/8PF/9ORe65WGEiR206UA9lhpME9+ypcyDq5b8xNB isYDrvDc3Ga5KK1ECOhkwV2N6eFXWyeGN+Y9CIaAdE2iX0CGr3i0C+EnsJ/GVUmAd+3a iu4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=C/v5PE2x5k/txfsqWS3WT1ZT+i5qu4mheqfFK3aVekg=; b=DC6DaYozTjCdEFzVo7F4kFVTbXkW3fCIAlf/0B3Yq8xOiO0+cMWec0kYqfJH1JQOKS CLiVVTNB2/7HXFq2qZwdFVo/f4XG60M3gQAjzIifh1fYRL2IioxAR53Wm1qWVmt11oRe 11qP2v6BVW/PX7iPqoii2Y6kc6wQJvS38QTQXx/ZzWbfbfQLjO5BSFGUU8DsmaTjd0Ij 5mxp1D0I8Kfqe0NdzlrXsTdnMs5E8UaI7icj6gGjv5U96q6QcBj9nj0Zp7tGnq5RIyWf W6VrNMppNYo92FmL3gUBi1wsbZTbJvFTOKg+MhaAFU4K99/9pZBSpWgOoUuzg0BaHqrU eJmg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5313RSFqUDbcT3HW0CY5xPtDlLSI3HAU+uzjjXIr8GYlRlOVqY1q ObSsIt8C5Ls9xeNtBC/o+N4mwTe9MxNyAoPK2FoteT2kTMtvpg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzP+6+l70m/iOBK2r0rDWChgbiZ+36aCKbxWIQQlmjqTXgXnS7yuqqZg2WCioBweli3l4gqeP/xvWwgvuvGGLI= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:729a:: with SMTP id v26mr14438469qto.362.1595688329405; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 07:45:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202007231833.06NIXNs5069643@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> In-Reply-To: From: John Cowan Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 10:45:18 -0400 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000c067c05ab45247b" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Groff on Windows (for PDF output)? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Grant Taylor Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000000c067c05ab45247b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:15 PM Clem Cole wrote: > The short answer is that Cygwin can never work as well as WSL because it's > layered on top of Windows and has to map. So the API is inherently only as > good as what Windows presents to the user. > Historically that was true, but no longer. Since 2000, more and more direct calls to the NT Executive have appeared in the cygwin1.dll source: there are about a thousand of them now, invoking about 90 different Executive APIs. Such features as flock(), mmap(), and reading from block devices cannot be done in Win32 and use the Executive directly. Unfortunately, it also makes Cygwin a bit more brittle to Microsoft changes, as the NT Executive API is permanently unstable. So far, Corinna and friends are keeping up nicely. When I was as DEC I was involved with the whole story ... so let me pull > much of the rest of the answer from my Quora answer to is 'Windows POSIX > compliant'[1]. > Thanks for the history! BTW, when you say "Win32S" you mean "Win32". Win32S was a long-obsolete package to let 32-bit Windows apps run on 16-bit Windows if they didn't try to do too much. (Which reminds me that in my list of subsystems running on the NT Executive, I forgot to mention WoW64, which provides a 32-bit WIn32 environment on the 64-bit Windows kernel, and is used to keep 32-bit Windows apps running.) > Anyway, my own experience is IF you have to use Windows 10, WSL pretty > much 'just works.' > I agree. However, I have spent much of my career on corporate Windows boxen, which are often locked down to prevent you from installing things, including WSL. Because Cygwin bypasses the regular Windows install system, it flies under the radar. John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You escaped them by the will-death and the Way of the Black Wheel. I could not. --Great-Souled Sam --0000000000000c067c05ab45247b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:15 PM Clem = Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
<= /div>
=C2=A0
The short answer is that Cygwin can never work as = well as WSL because it's layered on top of Windows and has to map.=C2= =A0 So the API is inherently=C2=A0only as good as what Windows presents to = the user.=C2=A0

His= torically that was true, but no longer.=C2=A0 Since 2000, more and more dir= ect calls to the NT Executive have appeared in the cygwin1.dll source: ther= e are about a thousand of them now, invoking about 90 different Executive A= PIs.=C2=A0 Such features as flock(), mmap(), and reading from block devices= cannot be done in Win32 and use the Executive directly.=C2=A0 Unfortunatel= y, it also makes Cygwin a bit more brittle to Microsoft changes, as the NT = Executive API is permanently unstable.=C2=A0 So far, Corinna and friends ar= e keeping up nicely.

When I was as DEC I was involve= d with the whole story ...=C2=A0 so let me pull much of the rest of the ans= wer from my Quora answer to is 'Windows POSIX compliant'[1].

Thanks for the histor= y!

BTW, when you say "Win32S" you mean &= quot;Win32".=C2=A0 Win32S=C2=A0 was a long-obsolete package to let 32-= bit Windows apps run on 16-bit Windows if they didn't try to do too muc= h.

(Which reminds me that=C2=A0in my list of subsy= stems running on the NT Executive, I forgot to mention WoW64, which provide= s a 32-bit WIn32 environment on the 64-bit Windows kernel, and is used to k= eep 32-bit Windows apps running.)
=C2=A0
Anyway, my own experien= ce is IF you have to use Windows 10, WSL pretty much 'just works.'= =C2=A0 =C2=A0

I agr= ee.=C2=A0 However, I have spent much of my career on corporate Windows boxe= n, which are often locked down to prevent you from installing things,=C2=A0= including WSL.=C2=A0 Because Cygwin bypasses the regular Windows install sy= stem, it flies under the radar.


John Cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0cowan@ccil.org
You es= caped them by the will-death and the Way of the Black Wheel.
I could not= . =C2=A0--Great-Souled Sam

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