From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 22380 invoked from network); 17 Sep 2021 03:54:49 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 17 Sep 2021 03:54:49 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BE0A29CAD2; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:54:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA029CAB3; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:54:17 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@ccil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.b="4swKRQOH"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E60B19CAB3; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:54:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f169.google.com (mail-qt1-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68ED09CAB2 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:54:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f169.google.com with SMTP id u21so7653707qtw.8 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:54:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gH5DdwaQOi5/NVA+WfFwfAfIKcBeBSY8J92DccRFNxA=; b=4swKRQOHyfQLKD8oDqsh/oszas0rIcV2FLfXeDXlYvvI3VJ9BdNj5FW+EpFf7k7eZC p+5fpwUjps2yGG4TaIu+cpL+c94xl4VLXO5XolTPhbHgl1J+w58cos7uqN75zmKImRPe 2tx5JTNfrJpu9ul2c2lDhFOk79yaNBN4ld8MXUMrZbVgZJhKJ5xN1CQgs5viN1ltFAn7 3mn1YZsBkABy5/DeJ4wtIZBncEpG7UlJulG0XBkT5+dfEg3fFoL3neo4uMh6MNYrtEYg fITGP9UF7ONOxIY+lF1xoPI8HDoP3WmoeSh4cYDWmQO9Da5CEkYe6cWWOdJoSYYG8uXK c/eQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gH5DdwaQOi5/NVA+WfFwfAfIKcBeBSY8J92DccRFNxA=; b=n5yR92Zc3uoEfdwGsM8pjOwfuzzzfUIrQhwIMTfkAEZZuo2sbUcNhg2XiojsM+m8V0 223IKbuJ9J6npzsH80O9bM4aV/LlusZ1+kWqJyj42CKefi1Y45MgOG+XHCUn1LR8fLuP 1KWNRenmZGpUE9Xwp6LnNDLrRl82iFAA1fEBwfxjH/sxDV7sFmfqIw2/VGRnwp6sVXLE P4wr2Q+ECVafw5Ju230mjq13Z/mxbbFSQ1WrJN2d771JZznpyC4Ve7h3WD4qQrjzLg3N g/bSuJvvnkItQbTjZDAB1H6Gt3SHHZQdGWyWV/vOLVwIKtNlNR2feUEq7iudbRfW2CJl +TMg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533F9hJf3+LwNVuVSAQJx9TA7TShxXPB1ysCWLaTW8vu5aJBcpzW i0CDk+in4AIvGYVPoJzv/hWkIPJnVCNcn+qBb0ymnA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyBRL+hNvMC0SWNBEymPoFz7S/hYVoIwefDaq6F+pxvz7OAC8t4iLBPx1lt12uIu5EQgO/fQJWU0wzE2VF5M7Q= X-Received: by 2002:aed:306b:: with SMTP id 98mr6124652qte.387.1631850852488; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:54:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202109161934.18GJYFsl881498@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210916194103.GK26820@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: John Cowan Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:54:01 -0400 Message-ID: To: Marshall Conover Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000063ac4905cc28e2c0" Subject: Re: [TUHS] ATC/OSDI'21 joint keynote: It's Time for Operating Systems to Rediscover Hardware (Timothy Roscoe) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000063ac4905cc28e2c0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 7:15 PM Marshall Conover wrote: > I know a container I deploy will have > everything it needs wherever it goes, and will be exactly the thing I > built and tested. Up to a point, Minister. You can mount a scratch monkey, but you can't mount a scratch Internet or a scratch AWS or a scratch Google. > At one point the VM on > which we were running those agents went down, and our stop-gap fix was > to download and run a few copies of that container locally. > That's true if the container isn't too vulgar big. I can run $EMPLOYER's whole application on my laptop in the root environment, but running it in Docker is too costly even though that's how it's deployed on AWS. > from the adage "necessity is the mother of invention." People writing > business logic today are targeting an OS-independent platform: the > browser. Most actual business logic is still in the back end, at least at my part of the coal face. The browser is more of a programmable platform as time goes by, but it's still a Blit even if no longer just a 3270. > Management - > which in this case, means the world at large - demands new features, > not unspecified heisen-benefits from redoing things that already work. > There is a pressure toward that. But when $CLIENTS (who are a lot bigger than $EMPLOYER) start to complain about how often the application they are paying $$$$$$$ for falls over due to lack of robustness, things change. Not everything can be startup-grade. --00000000000063ac4905cc28e2c0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Sep 16, 2= 021 at 7:15 PM Marshall Conover <marzhall.o@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
I know a container I deploy will have=
everything it needs wherever it goes, and will be exactly the thing I
built and tested.

Up t= o a point, Minister.=C2=A0 You can mount a scratch monkey, but you can'= t mount a scratch Internet or a scratch AWS or a scratch Google.
That's true if the container= isn't too vulgar big.=C2=A0 I can run $EMPLOYER's whole applicatio= n on my laptop in the root environment, but running it in Docker is too cos= tly even though that's how it's deployed on AWS.
=C2=A0
from the adage "= necessity is the mother of invention." People writing
business logic today are targeting an OS-independent platform: the
browser.

Most actual b= usiness logic is still in the back end, at least at my part of the coal fac= e.=C2=A0 The browser is more of a programmable platform as time goes by, bu= t it's still a Blit even if no longer just a 3270.
=C2=A0
Management -
which in this case, means the world at large - demands new features,
not unspecified heisen-benefits from redoing things that already work.
<= /blockquote>

There is a pressure to= ward that.=C2=A0 But when $CLIENTS (who are a lot bigger than $EMPLOYER) st= art to complain about how often the application they are paying $$$$$$$ for= falls over due to lack of robustness, things change.=C2=A0 Not everything = can be startup-grade.
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