From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 30410 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2022 23:13:28 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Feb 2022 23:13:28 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E68D99D6DF; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 09:13:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96AE79BA66; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 09:13:13 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@ccil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.b="SmPA21Tq"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 45B1A9BA66; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 09:13:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f41.google.com (mail-wm1-f41.google.com [209.85.128.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE6269B95E for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 09:13:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f41.google.com with SMTP id v123so13908312wme.2 for ; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 15:13:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RBfpHIxvnDNXAb821mnaZ5I5miSOpC2FEK4azGfIbRg=; b=SmPA21TqC2ypnUPyoSCyvhKdHku2/cwWvUX2dd53p4r4aBV9j+aM+cXMBKds1/tiQD FKyzqGipQN86Ac37k6FNBLfZWg872y6ctJaokF0lbgqiRHKTM047U708rdSOEOUDN4NO gnefGtWo7hT3LE27xKQR/WixeFIUwMrgmm32wTBCRI2RHIodhJTJUrIXJ1n32InB1wel Yzfs53DcOa7kZcoeowrVsbcs+F8Q9sLHvRQcrEIpX4AjaeZDxVRYZpnE4tgfbJiddquD zr1tX2X2aT55LUrwRqMwKahm2nMSOcwqnAFM3HbX6fo2VLt30sM9kiNRmO95QmIh4Vuy 7D+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RBfpHIxvnDNXAb821mnaZ5I5miSOpC2FEK4azGfIbRg=; b=6bhJJbYUdFdrH+b8XqTGd2jbYU67mjaC7zw/RJUJ6jMGHXiCnYg/auhgDLZIrueZIi KiAgVIymPqy3yX+LsuBjQ/gggW35iuKH00k/u5wTQmQLCV0cp+4YSGgF/4LVJUKyMLwo EU37VDlQf6/xiRg8Q8ZAzpid8h2ECVBlLDgWv6gn6xyvEJgnNB3fTREW8s1y75rpW/go rSxMlWvG045yeJOtxildjvzXAcF5tDWkB51CWCpEjUqfcZp32Yrf1bfk3D7hHdE9k9JY 0Tw5q6iDLaOOE1+vVsgJ7C6Fbc5/mHlgFRrcmiQ06cQr9MBy3VP/hgRzpzUTGp/h/ypc Y8gg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532A9EIGiFL6X3d7+7VV5O5KGUw76/jEj3/X4i4OKXFwiTkcGbDy DgBVAD8Iv7G0Jzg2L1sdaHNISy3/U62iG/f/J11MAA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxVTvwKZmNQ1sqnlNZHnVxcMpT16V/kU1YGXPMWGgomd1kPmFQkV6nPXZAt0o0mIAoK/RG8Ydam2SzIOtQTFRA= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c749:: with SMTP id w9mr3618035wmk.149.1643757188137; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 15:13:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220201181909.6224518C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: From: John Cowan Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 18:12:56 -0500 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004bd71e05d6fd0b58" Subject: Re: [TUHS] ratfor vibe X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Noel Chiappa Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000004bd71e05d6fd0b58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 4:33 PM Clem Cole wrote: > My disagreement with them using scripting (python) as step one is the lack > of teaching data typing early > Teaching types is very important. But Python is strongly typed: a string is not a number is not a hashtable. When it's important for performance reasons or consistency across a large codebase, you can add static type information to your Python code without overloading n00b brains with mandatory type annotations. AND python's silly use space/tabs to set up structure instead of real {} > or B/E blocks. > Nobody would accept code that was incorrectly indented (although some languages have more than one indentation convention, like C) in an assignment or pull request. And when looking at correct or mostly correct code, we look at the indentation structure, not the braces. That being so, having both braces and indentation is fundamentally a DRY violation. Automatic data conversion has never been a good idea in my experience > because like many things that happen magically, it almost never works as > I expect. > I think it was a customer revolt that persuaded IBM to add "mixed-mode" expressions like "A + I" to Fortran IV; they had been disallowed in Fortran II. I haven't heard anyone saying we ought to revert that change. --0000000000004bd71e05d6fd0b58 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Feb 1, 20= 22 at 4:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com<= /a>> wrote:

Teaching= types is very important.=C2=A0 But Python is strongly typed: a string is n= ot a number is not a hashtable.=C2=A0 When it's important for performan= ce reasons or consistency across a large codebase, you can add static type = information to your Python code without overloading n00b brains with mandat= ory type annotations.


Nobody would accept code that was incorrectly indented (although = some languages have more than one indentation convention, like C) in an ass= ignment or pull request.=C2=A0 And when looking at correct or mostly correc= t code, we look at the indentation structure, not the braces.=C2=A0 That be= ing so, having both braces and indentation is fundamentally a DRY violation= .


I think it was a cus= tomer revolt that persuaded IBM to add "mixed-mode" expressions l= ike "A=C2=A0+ I" to Fortran IV; they had been disallowed in Fortr= an II.=C2=A0 I haven't heard anyone saying we ought to revert that chan= ge.
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