From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 6963 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2021 16:27:12 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 5 Jul 2021 16:27:12 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D94949C9FE; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 02:27:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D85D29C9F1; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 02:26:19 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="VIKH85DE"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A76639C9F1; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 02:26:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f41.google.com (mail-qv1-f41.google.com [209.85.219.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2A309C9F0 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 02:26:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f41.google.com with SMTP id v17so8460226qvw.12 for ; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 09:26:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=znSRCP7LwJ4S9HLZNCbAbQsUGQkSzHcIBSk4eQmgeE0=; b=VIKH85DEsthJ2eJlWByCoqJY0p+nHqVk4LwL2e8bYld27RBZllixyCXO3nByUGm2VL 5cJ1HDfUDUDQvKNn2u11XjUm6vGYPWtG35kfS30SsQe21F8ZirqhCMH22L4ST6YT89Ax 6t7e6dibQRmtAvzkvH2w0eJryTUSym27/8JNtmhN6i2EsxuRHz1scLoFUlmrMDUuwjzy W5fTuwsxorzta4bWyxmoc5bh2vf7qbt9QZpjVIVhS/wxPiLDVNtbNSu5//9RGURiryYB i6Q4wsZg1iDMMC7NSCkQRaSxzR5DacuFkgaMCxf8Lkty7nCXyX9Fsfs9UTFeBCHpPWUS 0/ng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=znSRCP7LwJ4S9HLZNCbAbQsUGQkSzHcIBSk4eQmgeE0=; b=BzB4H3yKjFl4F2Lkd1Q2QhwlSdZY/GbwicagbTGdWUFFlK/mGd+eQ8fw3dDN91iJvU vbM6t+Are5KP2WDTfXS37E85+rLwBpiwmNa0jKvddAAnDRE1DTRgeG8izKTxTLrQ8jtp rb6vPETtkLRGa7YlFgPUbfVQ0d5DPLHMI4f5O4m0K4JzyMf+S2sd51JMcplx+QswXd8d jBMWdsz2tTGQFb2PWRW/agntW/dxAnuhy4yB6VuYWfBtQtU45/fS+ll9e5FUs9KWn2OI dwqDtTzxi0sQu87Z8xHhaS3kvd9poVu6rZDJFKup3C+KDe1J7Idu/MpOQKIGvKDPmOnC xrfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531rYvXBdW4n4Gd2tbsEa0bqhvyjUv6V8H2CiabB1co7jOpa3oU8 Lnb5mbBWEqVbLsuAS1LGzQL5cp497m7ry8/mNwCeRvneg96X/qdIRbQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwVtH0aGeEK2J28AkegGZ/E4f4+WB8Oxhsf+5cVUg2O9OKbP2HPdYKsOQmaJ8GBKRURHwO2/fRTBB2DNpQCrIQ= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:e8d2:: with SMTP id m18mr13988787qvo.22.1625502375041; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 09:26:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210702213648.GW817@mcvoy.com> <396911b232bae5938068a14fe0f7181e@firemail.de> <20210704004757.GB24671@tau1.ceti.pl> <20210705071450.GA12885@tau1.ceti.pl> In-Reply-To: <20210705071450.GA12885@tau1.ceti.pl> From: John Cowan Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2021 12:26:04 -0400 Message-ID: To: Tomasz Rola Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a56d6605c662c359" Subject: Re: [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000a56d6605c662c359 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 3:15 AM Tomasz Rola wrote: > So, looking from this perspective, maybe there was nothing > particularly special in Unix as such. It was just a double pump of > C-Unix, mutually pumping each other's success story. > I think there is more to it than that. See < http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/zealot.html>. I am not sure. I tried to find some time and install old OS on > simh/pdp11, yet there was always something more pressing to do. Some > alternatives to Unix, judging by their wikipedia descriptions, did not > convince me - like, one OS booted straight into debugger, if memory > serves. ITS, yes. But the debugger was not just a debugger, it was also a general command-line interpreter, a shell in modern terms. So while it is possible to debug an empty memory into doing whatever you want, it is also possible to run "advent", aka Colossal Cave Adventure. > And after > reading about TECO, plenty of editors seem like better choice for me > :-). > I switched from Teco to ex at some point, and never went either forward or back. (Occasionally I drop into vi mode for things like parenthesis checking.) By the way, did anyone else start out on Unix-alikes before using actual Unix? I read the BSTJ issue and became an instant convert, but only when $EMPLOYER got a MicroVAX was I able to work like that. Next came the MKS Toolkit on DOS, and then Cygwin for many years. I suppose it's only my last two $EMPLOYERs standardizing on the Mac that has left me running, like, actual Unix. If I still stick to Unix, it is because I still need something > dependable and allowing my various experiments or small time > developments. > "Computers are the greatest set of electric trains in the world." > I still suggest they are following the money. They are the > kind of folk who never would find Unix interesting enough based on > merits only. Asking about their choices leads us nowwhere, because > their choices are not based on technical criteria. > True. But then, many of us geeks make our choices not on technical criteria but on tribal loyalty. Which is *technically* superior, vi or emacs? (Please don't answer that.) > Of course I could not be using specialised note > taking program. Instead, I went with Emacs and org-mode. In the > process I had to learn a bit of Elisp and dot-emacs file. Some > defaults in Emacs are not comfy for my eyes - fonts, colors, it had to > be fine tuned to my liking. > Note that Emacs is probably the oldest import into the Unix ecosystem from outside, and it bears the marks of its origin: monolithic (but programmable), one tool does it all. > I wonder if other Unix (ab)users share something with me? Like, > specialised single-person needs, or putting together building blocks > of command line tools, or preference for terminal based software > (because it works more often than not)? > Without doubt. I am not loyal to a kernel or a set of utilities, I simply follow the Way of Unix: (sadly incomplete) John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org "Hacking is the true football." --F.W. Campbell (1863) in response to a successful attempt to ban shin-kicking from soccer. Today, it's biting. --000000000000a56d6605c662c359 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 3:15 AM Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl> wrote:
=C2=A0
So, looking from this = perspective, maybe there was nothing
particularly special in Unix as such. It was just a double pump of
C-Unix, mutually pumping each other's success story.

I think there is more to it than tha= t.=C2=A0 See <http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/zealot.html>= .

I am not sure. I tried to find some time and install old = OS on
simh/pdp11, yet there was always something more pressing to do. Some
alternatives to Unix, judging by their wikipedia descriptions, did not
convince me - like, one OS booted straight into debugger, if memory
serves.

ITS, yes.=C2= =A0 But the debugger was not just a debugger, it was also a general command= -line interpreter, a shell in modern terms.=C2=A0 So while it is possible t= o debug an empty memory into doing whatever you want, it is also possible t= o run "advent", aka Colossal Cave Adventure.
And afte= r
reading about TECO, plenty of editors seem like better choice for me
:-).

I switched fr= om Teco to ex at some point, and never went either forward or back.=C2=A0 (= Occasionally I drop into vi mode for things like parenthesis checking.)

By the way,= did anyone else start out on Unix-alikes before using actual Unix?=C2=A0 I= read the BSTJ issue and became an instant convert, but only when $EMPLOYER= got a MicroVAX was I able to work like that.=C2=A0 Next came the MKS Toolk= it on DOS, and then Cygwin for many years.=C2=A0 I suppose it's only my= last two $EMPLOYERs standardizing on the Mac that has left me running, lik= e, actual Unix.

If I still stick to Unix, it is because I still need something
dependable and allowing my various experiments or small time
developments.

&qu= ot;Computers are the greatest set of electric trains in the world."
=C2=A0
=C2= =A0I still suggest they are following the money. They are the
kind of folk who never would find Unix interesting enough based on
merits only. Asking about their choices leads us nowwhere, because
their choices are not based on technical criteria.
True.=C2=A0 But then, many of us geeks mak= e our choices not on technical criteria but on tribal loyalty.=C2=A0 Which = is *technically* superior, vi or emacs?=C2=A0 (Please don't answer that= .)
Of course I could not be using specialised note
taking program. Instead, I went with Emacs and org-mode. In the
process I had to learn a bit of Elisp and dot-emacs file. Some
defaults in Emacs are not comfy for my eyes - fonts, colors, it had to
be fine tuned to my liking.

Note that Emacs is probably the oldest import into the Unix ecosy= stem from outside, and it bears the marks of its origin: monolithic (but pr= ogrammable), one tool does it all.
=C2=A0
I wonder if other Unix (ab)users share something with me? Like,
specialised single-person needs, or putting together building blocks
of command line tools, or preference for terminal based software
(because it works more often than not)?

Without doubt.=C2=A0 I am not loyal to a kernel or a= set of utilities, I simply follow the Way of Unix: <http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan/upc/> (s= adly incomplete)



John Cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0cowan@ccil.org
"Hacking= is the true football." =C2=A0--F.W. Campbell (1863) in response to a<= br>successful attempt to ban shin-kicking from soccer.=C2=A0 Today, it'= s biting.



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