From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7905 invoked from network); 31 Jan 2021 03:33:01 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 31 Jan 2021 03:33:01 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 323B59C7C7; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 13:32:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9EC69C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 13:32:23 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="OU251CFL"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B43609C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 13:32:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f174.google.com (mail-qk1-f174.google.com [209.85.222.174]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96A4A9C63D for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 13:32:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f174.google.com with SMTP id x81so12978013qkb.0 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 19:32:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Tw0RjsOmDWY0tUqW+cRJdNa5X8Xeucr8j1tkall9ijo=; b=OU251CFL9AaWAVIkM2eaGmD9yt6xOkhFwU9IOD1BW69w4sa1XYy8PQyeRPf1A2iEXq znSJCrXKE3BZWYe8xBz6tLW6dqw/uslgndZuYbrVc41ULJTlx6nUkXUb9sKrhjteyROM CEVoY/Z/W8uoeM7J2VKcHCwdj4Bzrr6oQjhnvDy2aCdQRmln9uH4uIzB8nNHd56p22NZ 5qrCeZ3+i1kt6i3zaIm51dK43it5Qzypm4k77sV9CD/7w/InqIGvpXuWcP9/11DBVzpl 5LLLry58QjZIjbS+SdQZ3ROnA+P3ENQq9sXxIt2hcFmhkrH9ziyO9L21eJGQ8HUwSD2l gJPw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Tw0RjsOmDWY0tUqW+cRJdNa5X8Xeucr8j1tkall9ijo=; b=btMDjQl+W+lLIkqe02BNiczioID/hQykpzkdYjO4KsF9HvmB5MYUEKkKq2aJbA8LJb ytDw+Tg5SrXePUMY3PXj7EVgcuDLo+h8bE+/GiIqmHp6uzACxdoVxwqZmj1LJqs8xjP8 BF3+9UnqLpOK2z5gzOkIosBnt0rDPHFt7ArDNnNaJr1+4F6hZsD5CvjsDdShjCahjH0v IHHNQYvaEI/nf+EhCizikxrD7TlpdfwzGDMyDDODBme5moBrWGkaN9ROvYhjvVZwIzru p5K9gRXOJE9Lzu3+lXq5OBgiMsglFgylF7oTWZ2AgPJNkOJp8pfMXQtSU6sCyVrKUtOI vV5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531gMbdsHOxhNS1K44w+rIR74PHz3yxit7LZffLYH5Vj5QvKG9xX Lgrlo5N/HyA7UQrYKJtmmmQk2lkEh6okglGsg/AizA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxjlHMrNqJ1nU8SmtSSQTU7fBFqhoETweeig3d+eXvACXHX0BWS4F/jX4oIShCsXCTD5TZPb/AGyOSO9XeiBNQ= X-Received: by 2002:a37:345:: with SMTP id 66mr10514211qkd.358.1612063940725; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 19:32:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202101301950.10UJoWeA456408@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210130222854.GN4227@mcvoy.com> <20210130231119.GA33905@eureka.lemis.com> <20210131022500.GU4227@mcvoy.com> <4B3239A9-A165-4F00-8EF1-A674CBCFC7FF@gmail.com> <20210131030019.GW4227@mcvoy.com> <3797E07F-7BC8-4EE5-B317-2A51D7C3E671@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3797E07F-7BC8-4EE5-B317-2A51D7C3E671@gmail.com> From: John Cowan Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 22:32:08 -0500 Message-ID: To: Will Senn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008ae28405ba29e2e6" Subject: Re: [TUHS] FreeBSD behind the times? (was: Favorite unix design principles?) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000008ae28405ba29e2e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since, I am an ex(1) troglodyte, I'll be happy to umpire. (I know ed(1) is the standard editor, but I'm willing to trade a little standardosity for more convenience.) On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 10:06 PM Will Senn wrote: > No worries. Maybe it=E2=80=99s time for a vi emacs discussion... totally = kidding :) > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 30, 2021, at 9:00 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > I think this has gone on along enough. Don't want it to be personal, n= ot > > my intent. > > > > Like I said it seems like a Linux vs FreeBSD thing. Don't want that. > > You can search the archives about Ted talking about how ext was not > > all that (I'm a fan). > > > >> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 08:52:09PM -0600, Will Senn wrote: > >> Ha. Zfs may not be the be all and end all, but like I said, it???s > never failed me. Whereas extX and btrfs, and, and, and have many times. > Please don???t denigrate my knowledge, as so far as I know, we???ve never > met, and nothing I said warrants such. The installer reminds me of > Redhat???s old anaconda installer, I???ll grant you it???s dated. However= , > I typically install a new linux distro every week and there are many, man= y > installers that are far more confusing - Open Suse and Fedora are two tha= t > come to mind, Debian as well. I would hazard to guess your favorite Linux > is based on a distro that lacks a decent installer (Ubuntu and Mint are > Debian based). > >> > >> Will > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>> On Jan 30, 2021, at 8:25 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > >>> > >>> If you like ZFS you don't understand operating systems design. I do. > >>> Jeff Bonwick was a stats student at Stanford when he took my OS class= , > >>> I convinced him to come to Sun. Bill Moore worked for me. That's th= e > two > >>> main ZFS guys and I thought I had taught them well but they let me > down. > >>> > >>> ZFS doesn't use the page cache, they said it was too hard because ZFS > >>> is compressed. A typical file system just has block numbers, a > compressed > >>> one needs another int per block, it's the int that says these many > bytes > >>> are a block uncompressed. It's not that hard, it is 2 ints instead o= f > 1. > >>> > >>> In case I'm not being clear, the page cache is what everyone else use= s > >>> but ZFS has its own cache. So if you want to mmap() a ZFS file, ZFS > >>> has to bcopy() the data into the page cache and then spend a shit ton > >>> of code to make sure that the page cache data is in sync with the ZFS > >>> cache data. > >>> > >>> SunOS came from BSD but SunOS added mmap. Which had the same problem= , > >>> the BSD buffer cache was exactly the same as the ZFS cache, Sun spent > >>> years of effort to get rid of the buffer cache, everything is in the > >>> page cache. So ZFS was a HUGE step backwards in systems design. Mig= ht > >>> be the best file system ever (it is not) but it was not a good player > >>> in the OS world. > >>> > >>> Those guys said that it was too hard to make a compressed file fit in > >>> the page cache. BitKeeper has that code and proves that it can be > done. > >>> Be happy to walk anyone who cares through that code, I didn't write > that, > >>> Wayne Scott did, but it's some of the best written code I've ever see= n. > >>> Up there with Mojo's work on the SunOS VM system. (I'll bet that noo= ne > >>> takes me up on this offer, people love to argue but most don't want t= o > >>> learn. Prove me wrong, please). > >>> > >>> So good on you that you like ZFS and FreeBSD. I don't and I don't fo= r > >>> really good reasons. > >>> > >>> Let's try it this way. Get back to me when you can show me 40 people > >>> who have installed FreeBSD on their own, with no help. In the same > >>> time, I can show you 40,000 people who have installed Linux on their > >>> own, with no help. Probably 400,000. > >>> > >>> Technology is great, ease of use is what gets you users. ZFS is > >>> great but doesn't play nice with the OS. > >>> > >>> That's my oh brother. > >>> > >>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 07:47:41PM -0600, Will Senn wrote: > >>>> Oh brother. I use FreeBSD all the time. I prefer it for its stabilit= y > and ZFS which has NEVER let me down and I???ve done my share of stupid us= er > error. Now that Linux has ZFS, it doesn???t seem as stuck in the dark age= s, > but uptime on my fbsd instance is 10x any of my Linux instances. We are > soooo off topic, I think :). But, I???m always up for talking up FBSD. I > use it in my classes, too and the system is much more coherent for my > systems programming classes than linux. > >>>> > >>>> Will > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>>>>> On Jan 30, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey > wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Saturday, 30 January 2021 at 14:28:54 -0800, Larry McVoy wrote= : > >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 04:28:26PM -0500, Clem Cole wrote: > >>>>>>> If I could get the day-2-day > >>>>>>> applications that I need to work on FreeBSD, I suspect I would be > there in > >>>>>>> a heartbeat. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I dunno about that. I tried out FreeBSD a couple of years ago whe= n > >>>>>> Netflix was flirting with me. The installer hasn't seen any lovin= g > in > >>>>>> 30 years it would seem. The disk setup tool sucks just as bad as = it > >>>>>> did back in 1988. > >>>>> > >>>>> You could be right there, for some value of 1988 (FreeBSD came into > >>>>> being in 1992). The tools work without being good. But how often = do > >>>>> you use them? I've been using FreeBSD since the beginning, and I > >>>>> can't recall when I last used the disk partitioning tool, though I'= m > >>>>> sure that when I did I overrode a lot of (all?) the suggestions. > >>>>> > >>>>>> I remember when Linux was this bad in the .90ish releases. A long > >>>>>> time ago. Now their install is painless, it's every bit as good a= s > >>>>>> Windows and maybe better. > >>>>> > >>>>> FWIW, I find Microsoft "Windows" installation terminally confusing > >>>>> (that's what you were talking about, right?). And I've run into > >>>>> serious problems with various Linux installations too. That doesn'= t > >>>>> make the FreeBSD tools better, but maybe it relativizes it. > >>>>> > >>>>>> And it got that way fast, I remember doing an install on some > >>>>>> machine around 1998 or 1999, I didn't have a mouse plugged in, no > >>>>>> worries, you could just move around with the keyboard. X11 came u= p > >>>>>> as part of the install, the entire install was graphical and > >>>>>> seamless. > >>>>> > >>>>> The FreeBSD installer *does* install X if you select it. > >>>>> > >>>>>> FreeBSD is stuck in the 1990's in terms of user interface. > >>>>> > >>>>> You're still talking about the installer, aren't you? The normal > user > >>>>> interface is via the shell, which hasn't changed, and for a good > >>>>> reason. > >>>>> > >>>>>> They've done some good stuff in the kernel but it's not an end use= r > >>>>>> system, > >>>>> > >>>>> There I have to agree with you. A little TLC would go a long way. > >>>>> But I hope that you're not advocating the "change your GUI with you= r > >>>>> underwear" attitude that Microsoft, Apple and many Linux distros > >>>>> have. One of the reasons I don't use Linux is because every time I > >>>>> try, the interface has changed. > >>>>> > >>>>> Greg > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Sent from my desktop computer. > >>>>> Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. > >>>>> See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > >>>>> This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > >>>>> reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA > >>> > >>> -- > >>> --- > >>> Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > > > > -- > > --- > > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > --0000000000008ae28405ba29e2e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since, I am an ex(1) troglodyte, I'll be= happy to umpire.=C2=A0 (I know ed(1) is the standard editor, but I'm w= illing to trade a little standardosity for more convenience.)
On Sat, = Jan 30, 2021 at 10:06 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
No worries. Maybe it=E2=80=99s time for a vi emacs di= scussion... totally kidding :)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 30, 2021, at 9:00 PM, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> I think this has gone on along enough.=C2=A0 Don't want it to be p= ersonal, not
> my intent.
>
> Like I said it seems like a Linux vs FreeBSD thing.=C2=A0 Don't wa= nt that.
> You can search the archives about Ted talking about how ext was not > all that (I'm a fan).
>
>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 08:52:09PM -0600, Will Senn wrote:
>> Ha. Zfs may not be the be all and end all, but like I said, it???s= never failed me. Whereas extX and btrfs, and, and, and have many times. Pl= ease don???t denigrate my knowledge, as so far as I know, we???ve never met= , and nothing I said warrants such. The installer reminds me of Redhat???s = old anaconda installer, I???ll grant you it???s dated. However, I typically= install a new linux distro every week and there are many, many installers = that are far more confusing - Open Suse and Fedora are two that come to min= d, Debian as well. I would hazard to guess your favorite Linux is based on = a distro that lacks a decent installer (Ubuntu and Mint are Debian based). =
>>
>> Will
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jan 30, 2021, at 8:25 PM, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> If you like ZFS you don't understand operating systems des= ign.=C2=A0 I do.
>>> Jeff Bonwick was a stats student at Stanford when he took my O= S class,
>>> I convinced him to come to Sun.=C2=A0 Bill Moore worked for me= .=C2=A0 That's the two
>>> main ZFS guys and I thought I had taught them well but they le= t me down.
>>>
>>> ZFS doesn't use the page cache, they said it was too hard = because ZFS
>>> is compressed.=C2=A0 A typical file system just has block numb= ers, a compressed
>>> one needs another int per block, it's the int that says th= ese many bytes
>>> are a block uncompressed.=C2=A0 It's not that hard, it is = 2 ints instead of 1.
>>>
>>> In case I'm not being clear, the page cache is what everyo= ne else uses
>>> but ZFS has its own cache.=C2=A0 So if you want to mmap() a ZF= S file, ZFS
>>> has to bcopy() the data into the page cache and then spend a s= hit ton
>>> of code to make sure that the page cache data is in sync with = the ZFS
>>> cache data.
>>>
>>> SunOS came from BSD but SunOS added mmap.=C2=A0 Which had the = same problem,
>>> the BSD buffer cache was exactly the same as the ZFS cache, Su= n spent
>>> years of effort to get rid of the buffer cache, everything is = in the
>>> page cache.=C2=A0 So ZFS was a HUGE step backwards in systems = design.=C2=A0 Might
>>> be the best file system ever (it is not) but it was not a good= player
>>> in the OS world.
>>>
>>> Those guys said that it was too hard to make a compressed file= fit in
>>> the page cache.=C2=A0 BitKeeper has that code and proves that = it can be done.
>>> Be happy to walk anyone who cares through that code, I didn= 9;t write that,
>>> Wayne Scott did, but it's some of the best written code I&= #39;ve ever seen.
>>> Up there with Mojo's work on the SunOS VM system.=C2=A0 (I= 'll bet that noone
>>> takes me up on this offer, people love to argue but most don&#= 39;t want to
>>> learn.=C2=A0 Prove me wrong, please).
>>>
>>> So good on you that you like ZFS and FreeBSD.=C2=A0 I don'= t and I don't for
>>> really good reasons.
>>>
>>> Let's try it this way.=C2=A0 Get back to me when you can s= how me 40 people
>>> who have installed FreeBSD on their own, with no help.=C2=A0 I= n the same
>>> time, I can show you 40,000 people who have installed Linux on= their
>>> own, with no help.=C2=A0 Probably 400,000.
>>>
>>> Technology is great, ease of use is what gets you users.=C2=A0= ZFS is
>>> great but doesn't play nice with the OS.
>>>
>>> That's my oh brother.
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 07:47:41PM -0600, Will Senn wrote:=
>>>> Oh brother. I use FreeBSD all the time. I prefer it for it= s stability and ZFS which has NEVER let me down and I???ve done my share of= stupid user error. Now that Linux has ZFS, it doesn???t seem as stuck in t= he dark ages, but uptime on my fbsd instance is 10x any of my Linux instanc= es. We are soooo off topic, I think :). But, I???m always up for talking up= FBSD. I use it in my classes, too and the system is much more coherent for= my systems programming classes than linux.
>>>>
>>>> Will
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 30, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Greg 'groggy&= #39; Lehey <grog@lem= is.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Saturday, 30 January 2021 at 14:28:54 -0800= , Larry McVoy wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 04:28:26PM -0500, Clem= Cole wrote:
>>>>>>> If I could get the day-2-day
>>>>>>> applications that I need to work on FreeBSD, I= suspect I would be there in
>>>>>>> a heartbeat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I dunno about that.=C2=A0 I tried out FreeBSD a co= uple of years ago when
>>>>>> Netflix was flirting with me.=C2=A0 The installer = hasn't seen any loving in
>>>>>> 30 years it would seem.=C2=A0 The disk setup tool = sucks just as bad as it
>>>>>> did back in 1988.
>>>>>
>>>>> You could be right there, for some value of 1988 (Free= BSD came into
>>>>> being in 1992).=C2=A0 The tools work without being goo= d.=C2=A0 But how often do
>>>>> you use them?=C2=A0 I've been using FreeBSD since = the beginning, and I
>>>>> can't recall when I last used the disk partitionin= g tool, though I'm
>>>>> sure that when I did I overrode a lot of (all?) the su= ggestions.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember when Linux was this bad in the .90ish r= eleases.=C2=A0 A long
>>>>>> time ago.=C2=A0 Now their install is painless, it&= #39;s every bit as good as
>>>>>> Windows and maybe better.
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW, I find Microsoft "Windows" installatio= n terminally confusing
>>>>> (that's what you were talking about, right?).=C2= =A0 And I've run into
>>>>> serious problems with various Linux installations too.= =C2=A0 That doesn't
>>>>> make the FreeBSD tools better, but maybe it relativize= s it.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And it got that way fast, I remember doing an inst= all on some
>>>>>> machine around 1998 or 1999, I didn't have a m= ouse plugged in, no
>>>>>> worries, you could just move around with the keybo= ard.=C2=A0 X11 came up
>>>>>> as part of the install, the entire install was gra= phical and
>>>>>> seamless.
>>>>>
>>>>> The FreeBSD installer *does* install X if you select i= t.
>>>>>
>>>>>> FreeBSD is stuck in the 1990's in terms of use= r interface.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're still talking about the installer, aren'= ;t you?=C2=A0 The normal user
>>>>> interface is via the shell, which hasn't changed, = and for a good
>>>>> reason.
>>>>>
>>>>>> They've done some good stuff in the kernel but= it's not an end user
>>>>>> system,
>>>>>
>>>>> There I have to agree with you.=C2=A0 A little TLC wou= ld go a long way.
>>>>> But I hope that you're not advocating the "ch= ange your GUI with your
>>>>> underwear" attitude that Microsoft, Apple and man= y Linux distros
>>>>> have.=C2=A0 One of the reasons I don't use Linux i= s because every time I
>>>>> try, the interface has changed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Greg
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sent from my desktop computer.
>>>>> Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
>>>>> See complete headers for address and phone numbers. >>>>> This message is digitally signed.=C2=A0 If your Micros= oft mail program
>>>>> reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broke= n-MUA
>>>
>>> --
>>> ---
>>> Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lm at mcvoy.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lm at mcvoy.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= ht= tp://www.mcvoy.com/lm
--0000000000008ae28405ba29e2e6--