From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_PDS_PRO_TLD autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21022 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2022 12:58:43 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 Oct 2022 12:58:43 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4979E40ED2; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 22:58:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from pathfinder.casadevall.pro (pathfinder.casadevall.pro [45.33.112.193]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D742C40ECB for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 22:58:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-f182.google.com (mail-pg1-f182.google.com [209.85.215.182]) by pathfinder.casadevall.pro (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CD2CC1F51E for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 12:57:43 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=casadevall.pro; s=mail; t=1665493063; bh=GByzUCEpMQG+7iSB1FEfRjMnMX3if3ygRwODrCq9AAE=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:From; b=No/DM0jDG1+j/UNHnwV5gQGJCkdImXL8gqmMF4mEm1QMYEhDhZlBbXGou33rx23XG /9bRpdFFYsO4LJV4Iv9O0ECzJRcFIbRHbhRc4pPedEUr2ITwh7d6FM66QNIObGWgpC +yP+8naZguyaRpro+57PvIFn+wS/dmI7HA1uS4exabxbeLBCK3kaoGuZwyR7mJspjO dYREbnxflzytUT5pp+waTk7YO7sTPfFV70clxYMlT/CQGjce6Z/8cVAu15vnbg6mar 6OVPNJoN8W1kW3XN1nCPPSM3X00HoDVBrz/hY9zn2wzOuqdGmVrj0I73vuI+I3zgWm //qlmLYqz+njw== Received: by mail-pg1-f182.google.com with SMTP id 128so4996223pga.1 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 05:57:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0pWF7Lg1cRjZfBk9Oefa6qhQ3x1wBpugpTyKIEdPIsHMT/Pisu TsvBP0J9qxm4d0RJbtwMfgC/WEqfmz0v2MpaHN8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7NVPaNWSelCVsZGqQHAhZzy9TzMU9XdlCxgOsfhbJH9PpThrQPPCMqGFFSWvs3zz+LKm5CosMGCFg201gOB9A= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:b96:b0:55b:1054:865c with SMTP id g22-20020a056a000b9600b0055b1054865cmr24750791pfj.74.1665493061224; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 05:57:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7wbkqjmpdt.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7w35bvlydw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <7w35bvlydw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> From: Michael Casadevall Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:57:29 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Lars Brinkhoff Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004a4e3505eac1d231" Message-ID-Hash: ZJKWPHNVWGJZJLDDIYNWMZXVDOS4CSUH X-Message-ID-Hash: ZJKWPHNVWGJZJLDDIYNWMZXVDOS4CSUH X-MailFrom: michael@casadevall.pro X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Attempting To Build NOSC and BBN UNIXs + ARPANET code List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000004a4e3505eac1d231 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > Replies inline: > > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 1:31 AM Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > >> TUHS Disclaimer: I will claim this is primarily about getting Unix onto >> the Arpanet, but it does also contain trace amounts of off-topic >> information. Reader discretion is adviced. >> >> Michael Casadevall wrote: >> > I do need to do a readthrough for the VDH driver, which says its for >> > "very distant hosts". I think that might be for the radio links >> >> The hardware interfaces between a host and an IMP came in three flavors: >> local host, distant host, and very distant host. The first two are more >> or less directly connected and I forget what the difference is. But a >> very distant host is basically connected over a phone line with a modem >> at each end, so it's a different beast. The VHD driver would be for >> this, whilst IMP11A and ACC are local or distant. >> >> > That makes sense; most of the time, the documentation that survives implies > the IMP is always local; knowing this is important. From what I got the > impression > From the docs, very early ARPA, you had systems directly on the network, > but most > users had to dial into a specific terminal machine, which, based on the > comments > on the RFCs, was less than ideal, although I haven't quite figured out how > things like > netmail worked. > > VHD I guess was more to get more hosts online? > > > Hawaii >> >> Side note: apparently tapes from the unique Hawaii BCC 500 have been >> saved. So maybe that's one more possible re-Arpanet host. >> >> > Oh very nice. Depending on how that works, it might be possible to make a > radio link > over ham. I haven't seen anything about these links aside from them being > marked > the logicial maps. > > >> > Yup, that's what I figured. I've been trying to evaluate how much >> > survives >> >> Here's my take: >> https://gunkies.org/wiki/Network_Control_Program_(ARPANET)#Implementations >> >> So there are like four PDP-10 systems and two PDP-11. The ELF system >> will be a major challenge, RATS haven't been scanned off the printer >> listing, and the BCC 500... oh boy, let's not go there now. >> >> > Well, there's multiple UNIX v6 stacks. There's the NOSC one which I tried > to build, > and I think is the oldest. The BBN with TCP stack is a bit mislabeled: it > still appears > to support NCP, but none of the client apps are there, but its directly > built off the NOSC > stack. it's probably a fork from earlier in development. 79-80 timespawn > would have been > *very* early in TCP's life > > > I don't know if a runnable build of TENEX has been archived, >> >> I think so. I "almost" got one running but there was some problem... > > >> > > or if ARPA stuff for TOPS-10/20 survived. >> >> TOPS-20AN seems to be there. TOPS-10, nothing so far. >> >> > I also want to look into System/360 and 370, but I get the sense none >> > of the mainframe stuff survived. >> >> I asked around; found nothing. CDC, same. >> >> > Oof, although par the corse for mainframe preservation :( > > >> > The other problem is of the surviving stacks, they all seem to be for >> > the later 96-bit leader, I'm not certain if any of the IMP software >> > that has been archived is new enough to work with that. >> >> Nothing for the 316/516 IMP, as far as I know. Pluribus IMP emulator, >> anyone? >> > > I do actually wonder how hard that would be. The NCP kernel code seems to > suggest > it would be straightforward all things considered. It honestly reminds me > Hayes modem > commands of all things ... > Michael > --0000000000004a4e3505eac1d231 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Replies= inline:

On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 1:31 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:
TUHS Disclaimer: I will claim this is pri= marily about getting Unix onto
the Arpanet, but it does also contain trace amounts of off-topic
information.=C2=A0 Reader discretion is adviced.

Michael Casadevall wrote:
> I do need to do a readthrough for the VDH driver, which says its for > "very distant hosts".=C2=A0 I think that might be for the ra= dio links

The hardware interfaces between a host and an IMP came in three flavors: local host, distant host, and very distant host.=C2=A0 The first two are mo= re
or less directly connected and I forget what the difference is.=C2=A0 But a=
very distant host is basically connected over a phone line with a modem
at each end, so it's a different beast.=C2=A0 The VHD driver would be f= or
this, whilst IMP11A and ACC are local or distant.


That makes sense; most of the time, th= e documentation that survives implies
the IMP is always local; kn= owing this is important. From what I got the impression
From the = docs, very early ARPA, you had systems directly on the network, but most
users had to dial into a specific terminal machine, which, based on= the comments
on the RFCs, was less than ideal, although I haven&= #39;t quite figured out how things like
netmail worked.

VHD I guess was more to get more hosts online?

> Hawaii

Side note: apparently tapes from the unique Hawaii BCC 500 have been
saved.=C2=A0 So maybe that's one more possible re-Arpanet host.


Oh very nice. Depending on how that wo= rks, it might be possible to make a radio link
over ham. I haven&= #39;t seen anything about these links aside from them being marked
the logicial maps.
=C2=A0
> Yup, that's what I figured. I've been trying to evaluate how m= uch
> survives

Here's my take:
https://gunkies.org/wiki/N= etwork_Control_Program_(ARPANET)#Implementations

So there are like four PDP-10 systems and two PDP-11.=C2=A0 The ELF system<= br> will be a major challenge, RATS haven't been scanned off the printer listing, and the BCC 500... oh boy, let's not go there now.


=C2=A0Well, there's multiple UNIX = v6 stacks. There's the NOSC one which I tried to build,
and I= think is the oldest. The BBN=C2=A0 with TCP stack is a bit mislabeled: it = still appears
to support NCP, but none of the client apps are the= re, but its directly built off the NOSC
stack. it's probably = a fork from earlier in development. 79-80 timespawn would have been
*very* early in TCP's life

> I don't know if a runnable build of TENEX has been archived,

I think so.=C2=A0 I "almost" got one running but there was some p= roblem...=C2=A0
=C2=A0
> or if ARPA stuff for TOPS-10/20 survived.

TOPS-20AN seems to be there.=C2=A0 TOPS-10, nothing so far.

> I also want to look into System/360 and 370, but I get the sense none<= br> > of the mainframe stuff survived.

I asked around; found nothing.=C2=A0 CDC, same.


Oof, although par the corse for mainfr= ame preservation :(
=C2=A0
> The other problem is of the surviving stacks, they all seem to be for<= br> > the later 96-bit leader, I'm not certain if any of the IMP softwar= e
> that has been archived is new enough to work with that.

Nothing for the 316/516 IMP, as far as I know.=C2=A0 Pluribus IMP emulator,=
anyone?

I do actually wonder how hard t= hat would be. The NCP kernel code seems to suggest
it would be st= raightforward all things considered. It honestly reminds me=C2=A0 Hayes mod= em
commands of all things ...
Michael
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