From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_PDS_PRO_TLD autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 24613 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2022 20:32:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 10 Oct 2022 20:32:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE1940EC8; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 06:31:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: from pathfinder.casadevall.pro (pathfinder.casadevall.pro [45.33.112.193]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C15A940EC7 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 06:31:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-f169.google.com (mail-pg1-f169.google.com [209.85.215.169]) by pathfinder.casadevall.pro (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E56811F530 for ; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 20:31:18 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=casadevall.pro; s=mail; t=1665433878; bh=9DK4DD89cNHRd3hA7CEjCumTAJyQyQ4uVpvl9DbnpRI=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:From; b=iYG4E08jD+h5popwuM8Fzr4Z/HLRidLkGFnvGuxRTKtlIibxMCEDYlmMrFTaWuJyI fvNhg13FjxXgSepPx+iPICu6ExrACCxTScIi3fjKe336Bhb1KeTwA3j2d9uPwXFvw6 T9UDVgoOJTUMA9ntstBJG2ImzpgvVAV4Q77y7y2ZPGdWL2kNsER9RWmb12ifOyNVz9 bCrhckYOMFaijO75pbZPU0PJUSo9Uv0+2j06p26G9NEHmcJIkh1mCqkT7iNx5j78MU erM5MtXCD2w9mb9UY8zAm3XnGZLyS6bLfhLZwwRl6SHOT6TVt4RuLegHz68dB88zue wQ8RQ9sEcYCUA== Received: by mail-pg1-f169.google.com with SMTP id u71so3626438pgd.2 for ; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 13:31:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3YEQQaShhQVBdLB+R8AfQMwAavrXUhiXdLelcVUwarhqrpYUtP AapE5QyKU9+qKFnCmZgJo6VPt1bapzUvPOAEV0s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7v4/5AgxHyb8avQnDhh0416E/bwc5fmDK9OaTdE4mxKc8T7KwQbsviYVudqTAb8m2kSjYDIY4MQRf+s5a9pXc= X-Received: by 2002:a63:2bd4:0:b0:451:5df1:4b15 with SMTP id r203-20020a632bd4000000b004515df14b15mr18160075pgr.518.1665433875607; Mon, 10 Oct 2022 13:31:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7wbkqjmpdt.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <7wbkqjmpdt.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> From: Michael Casadevall Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2022 16:31:04 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Lars Brinkhoff Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008d782c05eab40ab5" Message-ID-Hash: 7MVLKFEZMD7AYJE2GTMTIE6I2TEOXYGP X-Message-ID-Hash: 7MVLKFEZMD7AYJE2GTMTIE6I2TEOXYGP X-MailFrom: michael@casadevall.pro X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Attempting To Build NOSC and BBN UNIXs + ARPANET code List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000008d782c05eab40ab5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Replies inline On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 3:48 PM Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Michael Casadevall wrote: > > part of impio.c is cut off. However, this isn=E2=80=99t quite as bad as= it > > sounds. For example, by kitbashing both the original v6 source code, > > and the later BBN TCP code, I was able to create a sys4.c that builds > > and links which should be close to the original. Furthermore, it is > > possible to use the =E2=80=9Cvdh=E2=80=9D target instead of the imp tar= get to at least > > try and get the code building. > > Too bad about impio.c! Maybe something can be extracted from the > unix.greg binary? I see there's also the ACC interface, another > alternative to IMP11A. > > Well, there is an impio.c in the BBN TCP code which has #define NCPs, which I used to rebuild the original impio.c; although this is very much a devil in the details situation. I do need to do a readthrough for the VDH driver, which says its for "very distant hosts". I think that might be for the radio links to Hawaii and the UK? I vaguely remember coming across that term in my reading, but I'm drawing a blank ATM. I did try to run the unix binaries in green and green47, but they seem to be configured for a RL0x drive of some sort; the driver is in the NOSC source, so it might be possible to get running, but without the host binaries, you'r enot going to get far. > My guess is it's either deadlocked waiting for the IMP, or there=E2=80=99= s > > something wrong with the build. > > Since you don't have anything backing the hardware registers for the IMP > interface, it seems likely something will be upset. > > Well, I'm not sure if its trying to initialize the IMP on startup; there's a userspace daemon, ncpd which talks to the /dev nodes to do stuff; with network nodes showing up as /dev/net/*host. I did determine I at least seem to make it to sched() with my home cooked kernel, but I can't even start in single user mode. Honestly, it reminds me of Plan 9 more than anything. > > Furthermore, I do know that I can run some of the ARPA level utilities > > in MIT ITS on CHAOSNET, which will be an upcoming project, although > > that is going to be a dive in and of itself. > > It's complicated. Many of the utilities have parallels between the two, > and some work on both. And there's a server to provide a gateway from > Chaosnet to Arpanet. Give me a ping when you're looking into ITS. > > Will do. ITS feels like an extremely deep (if interesting) rabbithole :) > > I know IMPs have been emulated, and even have successfully routed > > packets, so I=E2=80=99m also trying to figure out how much would still = be > > necessary to actually recreate a minimal ARPA network? > > Reviving the host software, like you are are doing, is one vital part of > it. Another it adding emulators for various IMP interfaces. I.e. you > will not get anywhere without adding one of IMP11A, ACC, or VDH to SIMH. > > Yup, that's what I figured. I've been trying to evaluate how much survives here, but my general feeling is one of the UNIX stacks might be recoverable, plus the ARPA stuff in ITS. I don't know if a runnable build of TENEX has been archived, or if ARPA stuff for TOPS-10/20 survived. I also want to look into System/360 and 370, but I get the sense none of the mainframe stuff survived. The other problem is of the surviving stacks, they all seem to be for the later 96-bit leader, I'm not certain if any of the IMP software that has been archived is new enough to work with that. That said, that isn't an insurmountable problem. ~ NCommander --0000000000008d782c05eab40ab5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Replies inline

On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 3:48 PM Lars Br= inkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrot= e:
Michael Casad= evall wrote:
> part of impio.c is cut off. However, this isn=E2=80=99= t quite as bad as it
> sounds. For example, by kitbashing both the or= iginal v6 source code,
> and the later BBN TCP code, I was able to cr= eate a sys4.c that builds
> and links which should be close to the or= iginal. Furthermore, it is
> possible to use the =E2=80=9Cvdh=E2=80= =9D target instead of the imp target to at least
> try and get the co= de building.

Too bad about impio.c!=C2=A0 Maybe something can be ext= racted from the
unix.greg binary?=C2=A0 I see there's also the ACC i= nterface, another
alternative to IMP11A.


Well, there is an impio.c in the BBN TCP code which has #define NC= Ps, which
I used to rebuild the original impio.c; although this i= s very much a devil in the
details situation.=C2=A0
=C2= =A0
I do need to do a readthrough for the VDH driver, which says = its for "very distant hosts".
I think that might be for= the radio links to Hawaii and the UK? I vaguely remember coming
= across that term in my reading, but I'm drawing a blank ATM.
=
I did try to run the unix binaries in green and green47, but= they seem to be configured
for a RL0x drive of some sort; the dr= iver is in the NOSC source, so it might be possible
to get runnin= g, but without the host binaries, you'r enot going to get far.

> My guess= is it's either deadlocked waiting for the IMP, or there=E2=80=99s
&= gt; something wrong with the build.

Since you don't have anythin= g backing the hardware registers for the IMP
interface, it seems likely = something will be upset.


Well, I= 9;m not sure if its trying to initialize the IMP on startup; there's a = userspace daemon,
ncpd which talks to the /dev nodes to do stuff;= with network nodes showing up as /dev/net/*host.

= I did determine I at least seem to make it to sched() with my home cooked k= ernel, but I can't even
start in single user mode.
=
Honestly, it reminds me of Plan 9 more than anything.=C2=A0<= br>
=C2=A0
> Furthermore, I do know that I can run some of the ARPA level utilitie= s
> in MIT ITS on CHAOSNET, which will be an upcoming project, althou= gh
> that is going to be a dive in and of itself.

It's com= plicated.=C2=A0 Many of the utilities have parallels between the two,
an= d some work on both.=C2=A0 And there's a server to provide a gateway fr= om
Chaosnet to Arpanet.=C2=A0 Give me a ping when you're looking int= o ITS.


Will do. ITS feels like an e= xtremely deep (if interesting) rabbithole :)
=C2=A0
> I know IMPs have been emulat= ed, and even have successfully routed
> packets, so I=E2=80=99m also = trying to figure out how much would still be
> necessary to actually = recreate a minimal ARPA network?

Reviving the host software, like yo= u are are doing, is one vital part of
it.=C2=A0 Another it adding emulat= ors for various IMP interfaces.=C2=A0 I.e. you
will not get anywhere wit= hout adding one of IMP11A, ACC, or VDH to SIMH.

Yup, that's what I figured. I've been trying to evalua= te how much survives here, but
my general feeling is one of the U= NIX stacks might be recoverable, plus the ARPA
stuff in ITS. I do= n't know if a runnable build of TENEX has been archived, or if ARPA
stuff for TOPS-10/20 survived.=C2=A0

I also= want to look into System/360 and 370, but I get the sense none of the main= frame stuff survived.

The other problem is of the = surviving stacks, they all seem to be for the later 96-bit leader,
I'm not certain if any of the IMP software that has been archived is = new enough to work with that.

That said, that isn&= #39;t an insurmountable problem.
~ NCommander=C2=A0
--0000000000008d782c05eab40ab5--