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* [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC?
@ 2021-04-27 19:49 Adam Thornton
  2021-04-27 20:51 ` Clem Cole
  2021-04-28 15:42 ` Hans Rosenfeld
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2021-04-27 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Thanks to Emanuel Steibler, I am now in possession of a VAXStation 4000
VLC.  I've got OpenVMS installed, but, well, the SCSI2SD gives me two more
2GB disks (the fourth partition is the OpenVMS install CD).

I'd like to put Quasijarus on it.

Problem is, the VLC only supports, as far as I know, SCSI devices.  I'm
quite happy to install Quasijarus under simhfrom an emulated SCSI tape to
an rz device and then just dd the resulting disk image over to the SD
card...but I can't work out how to do it.

This (as my simh ini file) works fine for getting to the emulated console:

set rz0 rzu
att rz0 quas.dsk
set rz4 tz30
att rz4 quas.tap
boot.cpu

Problem is, quas.tap doesn't actually work; neither the prepackaged
4.3BSD-Quasijarus0c.tap nor one I make with mkdisttap.pl and the input
stand/miniroot/etc files.

I get this:

adam@m1-wired:~/Documents/src/quasi$ ./vaxstation4000vlc install.ini

VAXstation 4000-VLC (KA48) simulator V4.0-0 Current        git commit id:
9bf37d3d
/Users/adam/Documents/src/quasi/install.ini-4> att rz4 quas.tap
RZ4: Tape Image 'quas.tap' scanned as SIMH format
/Users/adam/Documents/src/quasi/install.ini-5> boot cpu
Loading boot code from internal ka48a.bin



KA48-A V1.2-32B-V4.0
08-00-2B-B2-35-2C
16MB

?? 010   2       LCG  0086
?? 001   3        DZ  0032
?? 001   4     CACHE  0512
?? 001   7        IT  8706
?? 001   8       SYS  0128
?? 001   9        NI  0024

>>> show dev

  VMS/VMB      ADDR      DEVTYPE    NUMBYTES     RM/FX    WP    DEVNAM
 REV
  -------      ----      -------    --------     -----    --    ------
 ---
  ESA0         08-00-2B-B2-35-2C
  DKA0         A/0/0     DISK         2.14GB      FX            RZ23
 0A18
  DKA100       A/1/0     DISK        ......       FX            RZ23
 0A18
  DKA200       A/2/0     DISK        ......       FX            RZ23
 0A18
  DKA300       A/3/0     DISK        ......       FX            RZ23
 0A18
  MKA400       A/4/0     TAPE                     RM            TZK50
1.1A
  DKA500       A/5/0     DISK        ......       FX            RZ23
 0A18
 ..HostID..    A/6       INITR
  DKA700       A/7/0     DISK        ......       FX            RZ23
 0A18



>>> boot mka400:


-MKA400


?48 ENDOFFILE
HALT instruction, PC: 00000B15 (MOVL (R11),SP)

Sooooo....

How do I make a bootable SCSI tape image from Quasijarus?  Or,
alternatively, how can I create a bootable ISO image from the Quasijarus
installation files (and then either install under simh, or just dd to an SD
partition and boot from there, or even burn to an actual CD and install
from a SCSI CD-ROM drive)?

Adam

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* Re: [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC?
  2021-04-27 19:49 [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC? Adam Thornton
@ 2021-04-27 20:51 ` Clem Cole
  2021-04-28  3:01   ` Adam Thornton
  2021-04-28 15:42 ` Hans Rosenfeld
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-04-27 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Thornton; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Might I would suggest a slightly different path.

Install Quasijarus on a more traditional vax processor with RH style disks
[RMxx/RPxx] on the simh.   Then add a virtual RZ SCSI disk to the simh
system [although you might not even need to do that - as simh just sees the
disk as a linear file of blocks without any geometry].  The trick is to
make sure the virtual disk is set up so that you have a working
system/booting system on the virtual disk when changing the processor type
to match the VAXstation.  Then just DD the image to a real SCSI drive and
move it to the VAXstation.

On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 3:51 PM Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks to Emanuel Steibler, I am now in possession of a VAXStation 4000
> VLC.  I've got OpenVMS installed, but, well, the SCSI2SD gives me two more
> 2GB disks (the fourth partition is the OpenVMS install CD).
>
> I'd like to put Quasijarus on it.
>
> Problem is, the VLC only supports, as far as I know, SCSI devices.  I'm
> quite happy to install Quasijarus under simhfrom an emulated SCSI tape to
> an rz device and then just dd the resulting disk image over to the SD
> card...but I can't work out how to do it.
>
> This (as my simh ini file) works fine for getting to the emulated console:
>
> set rz0 rzu
> att rz0 quas.dsk
> set rz4 tz30
> att rz4 quas.tap
> boot.cpu
>
> Problem is, quas.tap doesn't actually work; neither the prepackaged
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0c.tap nor one I make with mkdisttap.pl and the input
> stand/miniroot/etc files.
>
> I get this:
>
> adam@m1-wired:~/Documents/src/quasi$ ./vaxstation4000vlc install.ini
>
> VAXstation 4000-VLC (KA48) simulator V4.0-0 Current        git commit id:
> 9bf37d3d
> /Users/adam/Documents/src/quasi/install.ini-4> att rz4 quas.tap
> RZ4: Tape Image 'quas.tap' scanned as SIMH format
> /Users/adam/Documents/src/quasi/install.ini-5> boot cpu
> Loading boot code from internal ka48a.bin
>
>
>
> KA48-A V1.2-32B-V4.0
> 08-00-2B-B2-35-2C
> 16MB
>
> ?? 010   2       LCG  0086
> ?? 001   3        DZ  0032
> ?? 001   4     CACHE  0512
> ?? 001   7        IT  8706
> ?? 001   8       SYS  0128
> ?? 001   9        NI  0024
>
> >>> show dev
>
>   VMS/VMB      ADDR      DEVTYPE    NUMBYTES     RM/FX    WP    DEVNAM
>  REV
>   -------      ----      -------    --------     -----    --    ------
>  ---
>   ESA0         08-00-2B-B2-35-2C
>   DKA0         A/0/0     DISK         2.14GB      FX            RZ23
>  0A18
>   DKA100       A/1/0     DISK        ......       FX            RZ23
>  0A18
>   DKA200       A/2/0     DISK        ......       FX            RZ23
>  0A18
>   DKA300       A/3/0     DISK        ......       FX            RZ23
>  0A18
>   MKA400       A/4/0     TAPE                     RM            TZK50
>   1.1A
>   DKA500       A/5/0     DISK        ......       FX            RZ23
>  0A18
>  ..HostID..    A/6       INITR
>   DKA700       A/7/0     DISK        ......       FX            RZ23
>  0A18
>
>
>
> >>> boot mka400:
>
>
> -MKA400
>
>
> ?48 ENDOFFILE
> HALT instruction, PC: 00000B15 (MOVL (R11),SP)
>
> Sooooo....
>
> How do I make a bootable SCSI tape image from Quasijarus?  Or,
> alternatively, how can I create a bootable ISO image from the Quasijarus
> installation files (and then either install under simh, or just dd to an SD
> partition and boot from there, or even burn to an actual CD and install
> from a SCSI CD-ROM drive)?
>
> Adam
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC?
  2021-04-27 20:51 ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-04-28  3:01   ` Adam Thornton
  2021-04-28 13:15     ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2021-04-28  3:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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> On Apr 27, 2021, at 1:51 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> Might I would suggest a slightly different path.
> 
> Install Quasijarus on a more traditional vax processor with RH style disks [RMxx/RPxx] on the simh.   Then add a virtual RZ SCSI disk to the simh system [although you might not even need to do that - as simh just sees the disk as a linear file of blocks without any geometry].  The trick is to make sure the virtual disk is set up so that you have a working system/booting system on the virtual disk when changing the processor type to match the VAXstation.  Then just DD the image to a real SCSI drive and move it to the VAXstation.

I’m guessing I will at least have to copy the right bootloader and update the fstab, but I’ll copy the disk after installation and then see what happens.

Adam

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC?
  2021-04-28  3:01   ` Adam Thornton
@ 2021-04-28 13:15     ` Clem Cole
  2021-04-28 15:32       ` Adam Thornton
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-04-28 13:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Thornton; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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right - but the beauty of doing the heavy lifting in simh is that you
add/drop virtual devices as needed.   Make one disk with the VAXstation
bootstrap and another with the 780 style.  Once you know you have a proper
bootstrap, root partition, and /usr partition that will work properly on
the target / you know that now have the bits you need to boot to 'single
user.'  If you are really aggressive, you can create /etc/fstab.780 and
/etc/fstab.vs before you go to the real HW.   Because the key point is the
simh 'virtual disks' are just blocks and dd is your friend here.  You can
build up the bits on the real disk from the known pieces you create
separate files for simh.     Once you have a physical disk with proper bits
boot, then start up to 'single user' and fix up anything that really needs
to be HW specific.   Although a little work in /etc/rc{,.local} can even be
pre-made to automate that by having the script detect with CPU you booted
and ln /etc/fstab to the proper one.

As I said, you should be able to do almost all of the work on the simh
system before you go to the real HW.

Sure beats how we had to bootstrap systems back in the day.  The truth is
we used pretty much the same process to do this type of task, but had to
find a common disk between the 'parent' system and the 'target.'     simh
can make Frankenstein systems that never existed in which adds a layer of
ease, plus you even without that, since its just bits, you can take a
partition from a virtual disk on any geometry and move them to another disk
with a different geometry -- something much harder to do with real
hardware.    Everything here is just SW, which is a load faster and easier
;-)

Good luck,
Clem

On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 11:01 PM Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Apr 27, 2021, at 1:51 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
> Might I would suggest a slightly different path.
>
> Install Quasijarus on a more traditional vax processor with RH style
> disks [RMxx/RPxx] on the simh.   Then add a virtual RZ SCSI disk to the
> simh system [although you might not even need to do that - as simh just
> sees the disk as a linear file of blocks without any geometry].  The trick
> is to make sure the virtual disk is set up so that you have a working
> system/booting system on the virtual disk when changing the processor type
> to match the VAXstation.  Then just DD the image to a real SCSI drive and
> move it to the VAXstation.
>
>
> I’m guessing I will at least have to copy the right bootloader and update
> the fstab, but I’ll copy the disk after installation and then see what
> happens.
>
> Adam
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC?
  2021-04-28 13:15     ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-04-28 15:32       ` Adam Thornton
  2021-04-28 15:46         ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2021-04-28 15:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Ah, that’s my next question: none of the simh models seem to support the different disk types simultaneously, but if I understand right it’s just a matter of looking at how peripherals are assembled for a given model (which is probably just in the admittedly kind of gross Makefile) and, as you say, Frankensteining together a hideous abomination VAXstrosity with all the stuff I want.

Adam


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC?
  2021-04-27 19:49 [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC? Adam Thornton
  2021-04-27 20:51 ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-04-28 15:42 ` Hans Rosenfeld
  2021-04-28 16:16   ` Henry Bent
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Hans Rosenfeld @ 2021-04-28 15:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 12:49:50PM -0700, Adam Thornton wrote:
> Thanks to Emanuel Steibler, I am now in possession of a VAXStation 4000
> VLC.  I've got OpenVMS installed, but, well, the SCSI2SD gives me two more
> 2GB disks (the fourth partition is the OpenVMS install CD).
> 
> I'd like to put Quasijarus on it.
> 
> Problem is, the VLC only supports, as far as I know, SCSI devices.  I'm
> quite happy to install Quasijarus under simhfrom an emulated SCSI tape to
> an rz device and then just dd the resulting disk image over to the SD
> card...but I can't work out how to do it.

Are you sure that 4.3BSD Quasijarus supports running on a 4000VLC, or
utilizing SCSI devices? Last time I looked it didn't support anything
newer than the pure QBus MicroVAXen and VAXstations, and the only SCSI
devices supported were those on MSCP-to-SCSI controllers.

Hans


-- 
%SYSTEM-F-ANARCHISM, The operating system has been overthrown

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC?
  2021-04-28 15:32       ` Adam Thornton
@ 2021-04-28 15:46         ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-04-28 15:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Thornton; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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replying offline to cut down in list spam

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 11:32 AM Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ah, that’s my next question: none of the simh models seem to support the
> different disk types simultaneously, but if I understand right it’s just a
> matter of looking at how peripherals are assembled for a given model (which
> is probably just in the admittedly kind of gross Makefile) and, as you say,
> Frankensteining together a hideous abomination VAXstrosity with all the
> stuff I want.
>
> Adam
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC?
  2021-04-28 15:42 ` Hans Rosenfeld
@ 2021-04-28 16:16   ` Henry Bent
  2021-04-28 16:22     ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2021-04-28 16:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 12:01, Hans Rosenfeld <rosenfeld@grumpf.hope-2000.org>
wrote:

>
> Are you sure that 4.3BSD Quasijarus supports running on a 4000VLC, or
> utilizing SCSI devices? Last time I looked it didn't support anything
> newer than the pure QBus MicroVAXen and VAXstations, and the only SCSI
> devices supported were those on MSCP-to-SCSI controllers.
>
>
Indeed, on Quasijarus the GENERIC config file only supports (see
https://github.com/abs0/4.3BSD-Quasijarus/blob/main/sys/conf/GENERIC.vax):
cpu             "VAX8600"
cpu             "VAX8200"
cpu             "VAX780"
cpu             "VAX750"
cpu             "VAX730"
cpu             "VAX630"
cpu             "VAX650"

I think the only Unix to ever support the VLC was NetBSD, or maybe some
versions of OpenBSD did too?

-Henry

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC?
  2021-04-28 16:16   ` Henry Bent
@ 2021-04-28 16:22     ` Clem Cole
  2021-04-28 16:33       ` Henry Bent
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-04-28 16:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Henry Bent; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Henry - any idea is you add:   cpu             "VAX4000"

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 12:17 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 12:01, Hans Rosenfeld <
> rosenfeld@grumpf.hope-2000.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Are you sure that 4.3BSD Quasijarus supports running on a 4000VLC, or
>> utilizing SCSI devices? Last time I looked it didn't support anything
>> newer than the pure QBus MicroVAXen and VAXstations, and the only SCSI
>> devices supported were those on MSCP-to-SCSI controllers.
>>
>>
> Indeed, on Quasijarus the GENERIC config file only supports (see
> https://github.com/abs0/4.3BSD-Quasijarus/blob/main/sys/conf/GENERIC.vax):
> cpu             "VAX8600"
> cpu             "VAX8200"
> cpu             "VAX780"
> cpu             "VAX750"
> cpu             "VAX730"
> cpu             "VAX630"
> cpu             "VAX650"
>
> I think the only Unix to ever support the VLC was NetBSD, or maybe some
> versions of OpenBSD did too?
>
> -Henry
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC?
  2021-04-28 16:22     ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-04-28 16:33       ` Henry Bent
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2021-04-28 16:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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The support just plain isn't there.  There isn't anything in src/sys/vax
for any 4000 machine, there isn't LANCE ethernet support in src/sys/vaxif,
I don't see any mention of any 53C* SCSI controllers anywhere in the source
tree, etc.  As Hans said, you're stuck with the older big iron and the
older MicroVAXes.  Heck, even adding support for the 4000/200 (still a pure
Q-Bus machine) looks like it would be a fair amount of work.

-Henry

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 12:23, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> Henry - any idea is you add:   cpu             "VAX4000"
>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 12:17 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 12:01, Hans Rosenfeld <
>> rosenfeld@grumpf.hope-2000.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Are you sure that 4.3BSD Quasijarus supports running on a 4000VLC, or
>>> utilizing SCSI devices? Last time I looked it didn't support anything
>>> newer than the pure QBus MicroVAXen and VAXstations, and the only SCSI
>>> devices supported were those on MSCP-to-SCSI controllers.
>>>
>>>
>> Indeed, on Quasijarus the GENERIC config file only supports (see
>> https://github.com/abs0/4.3BSD-Quasijarus/blob/main/sys/conf/GENERIC.vax
>> ):
>> cpu             "VAX8600"
>> cpu             "VAX8200"
>> cpu             "VAX780"
>> cpu             "VAX750"
>> cpu             "VAX730"
>> cpu             "VAX630"
>> cpu             "VAX650"
>>
>> I think the only Unix to ever support the VLC was NetBSD, or maybe some
>> versions of OpenBSD did too?
>>
>> -Henry
>>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-04-28 16:34 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-04-27 19:49 [TUHS] How to install 4.3BSD Quasijarus on VAXStation 4000 VLC? Adam Thornton
2021-04-27 20:51 ` Clem Cole
2021-04-28  3:01   ` Adam Thornton
2021-04-28 13:15     ` Clem Cole
2021-04-28 15:32       ` Adam Thornton
2021-04-28 15:46         ` Clem Cole
2021-04-28 15:42 ` Hans Rosenfeld
2021-04-28 16:16   ` Henry Bent
2021-04-28 16:22     ` Clem Cole
2021-04-28 16:33       ` Henry Bent

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