From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 31937 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2021 21:57:42 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Jul 2021 21:57:42 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C204F9C873; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 07:57:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E442E9C864; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 07:57:17 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="upRQHo3w"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DF8669C864; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 07:56:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pj1-f49.google.com (mail-pj1-f49.google.com [209.85.216.49]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C7799C861 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 07:56:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pj1-f49.google.com with SMTP id kt19so7333944pjb.2 for ; Fri, 02 Jul 2021 14:56:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=n0XVGhJy92HtxDilDpROPpLh9PAWoEsIDVHwLocfCiE=; b=upRQHo3wP3FbLsTfo3mIjeNC1EUt/jD+zxRtSyusIWwuRsMD1oe35qpiqYLA1gZX26 ZZh82NUsKDXnIhngb979n/jgn+ou13V+crETnXk0j8dVSaLZmjiRe1lcclXFbxtqll8m MUXatDnh47dbI254KmkqXo7Ed63fgwEyNQQ81DQwilH91IdoHeppznh0eHgLZb9+PfQM FAs8kwxGu8hNQgQ5H1Qg9n/WJv2SH+nWxQRklVPkPjMuDChygvPh6bih3d+QyR3Exv20 St+2oLkwzsT467puaN0ZX1giCQLxMU9M38TwX/UT5wXk9/5pkzd5F8FwiT03SnPAt+ck RsWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=n0XVGhJy92HtxDilDpROPpLh9PAWoEsIDVHwLocfCiE=; b=dVRZ7RF4pAq70H0MHFeFo9miA90ezXTEm79G9hkZJIm+n3bE4qOka18u4pcNVAKBAB dUACkv8edVwwFwfiq+V42YvW2hjlU1ScOJlgLq03+u3YyW3xc9r7geFo/kgEqRK8bceD 4FBbOJ6a6s6x328K5WpPEl2ErZdxht+hYXca2kk+RUos8w8s5uxqNhAKR57Oc1OT0IOE pIRgNhdESlMSC23PnUDrY26JyXwPBoBZdeuWNSovN15GAffW62UF7EwnymCtkt81df/Z TSGBvDrqsw/O+b1kMXkjHvTpspT45pE0YFX+U3C5yZxxAREFYApD8UoFU64dA5H6bOMH xGFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5326UxhPyLZCHApP2RalC+aHqAQaaCpRNl6JJiSY+on/kailNvK9 Qkq3jCUihp+NbrlxhcrXDT6bqZ3aHu4MNk/ZHeA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwBKwqCj8hYmOxS6Zve6fo7+r1gHkZpiA3pXiL9vMrM35Zwg0FUmDufrwfNCgv2DnwdTbtpKEJNU/emuAkLiEo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:ac02:: with SMTP id o2mr1762971pjq.142.1625262995547; Fri, 02 Jul 2021 14:56:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210702213648.GW817@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20210702213648.GW817@mcvoy.com> From: Henry Bent Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 17:56:24 -0400 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000084292d05c62b07fb" Subject: Re: [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000084292d05c62b07fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" After rattling around in the back of a train car with nothing but my thoughts, I emerged and said: "systemd is a pox on our way of life" and then promptly rolled over and went back to sleep. -Henry On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 at 17:38, Larry McVoy wrote: > As I started reading it I found plenty to disagree with in the first few > paragraphs but they completely lost me at "After all, moving from System > V init scripts to systemd has arguably improvedthe Linux boot sequence." > > Um, no, just, no. > > > On Fri, Jul 02, 2021 at 03:24:20PM -0600, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > > In this week's BSDNow.tv podcast, available at > > > > https://www.bsdnow.tv/409 > > > > there is a story about a new conference paper on the Unix shell. The > > paper is available at > > > > Unix shell programming: the next 50 years > > HotOS '21: Workshop on Hot Topics in Operating Systems, Ann > > Arbor, Michigan, 1 June, 2021--3 June, 2021 > > https://doi.org/10.1145/3458336.3465294 > > > > The tone is overall negative, though they do say nice things about > > Doug McIlroy and Steve Johnson, and they offer ideas about > > improvements. > > > > List readers will have their own views of the paper. My own is that, > > despite its dark corners, the Bourne shell has served us > > extraordinarily well, and I have been writing in it daily for decades > > without being particularly bothered by the many issues raised by the > > paper's authors. Having dealt with so-called command shells on > > numerous other operating systems, at least the Unix shells rarely get > > in my way. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 > - > > - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 > - > > - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: > beebe@math.utah.edu - > > - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org > beebe@computer.org - > > - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: > http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ - > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > --00000000000084292d05c62b07fb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
After rattling around in the back of a train car with= nothing but my thoughts, I emerged and said:

&quo= t;systemd is a pox on our way of life"

and th= en promptly rolled over and went back to sleep.

-H= enry

On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 at 17:38, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
As I started reading it I found plenty to disagree wi= th in the first few
paragraphs but they completely lost me at "After all, moving from Syst= em
V init scripts to systemd has arguably improvedthe Linux boot sequence.&quo= t;

Um, no, just, no.


On Fri, Jul 02, 2021 at 03:24:20PM -0600, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:
> In this week's BSDNow.tv podcast, available at
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.bsdnow.tv/409
>
> there is a story about a new conference paper on the Unix shell.=C2=A0= The
> paper is available at
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Unix shell programming: the next 50 years >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0HotOS '21: Workshop on Hot Topics in Ope= rating Systems, Ann
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Arbor, Michigan, 1 June, 2021--3 June, 2021<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://doi.org/10.1145/345833= 6.3465294
>
> The tone is overall negative, though they do say nice things about
> Doug McIlroy and Steve Johnson, and they offer ideas about
> improvements.
>
> List readers will have their own views of the paper.=C2=A0 My own is t= hat,
> despite its dark corners, the Bourne shell has served us
> extraordinarily well, and I have been writing in it daily for decades<= br> > without being particularly bothered by the many issues raised by the > paper's authors.=C2=A0 Having dealt with so-called command shells = on
> numerous other operating systems, at least the Unix shells rarely get<= br> > in my way.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------
> - Nelson H. F. Beebe=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tel: +1 801 581 5254=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -
> - University of Utah=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 FAX: +1 801 581 4148=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -
> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu=C2=A0 -
> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0beebe@acm.org=C2=A0 beebe@computer.org -
> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA=C2=A0 =C2=A0 URL: http://w= ww.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------

--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 l= m at mcvo= y.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://www.mcvoy.com= /lm
--00000000000084292d05c62b07fb--