[TUHS] C-news is built

[TUHS] C-news is built

[Warren Toomey]

OK, Geoff Collyer has built the C-News binaries for the 4.2 emulated
systems. They are temporarily at http://minnie.tuhs.org/Y5/Cnews/

Does someone want to try and get them up and running on an emulated system?

Also, I've build a 4.3BSD version of the emulated uucp systems. It's a
separate branch at https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp. You can get it
by doing:

git clone https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp.git \
	--branch 4.3BSD --single-branch

Once it's solid enough I will make this the default branch, but I'll
leave the 4.2BSD branch there as well.

Thanks Geoff!
	Warren
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[TUHS] pathalias and mail maps

[Warren Toomey]

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 07:49:19PM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> OK, Geoff Collyer has built the C-News binaries.

A few people have hit me with a clue bat: we probably should be using the
comp.mail.maps database format for our uucp/Usenet sites, as then we can
feed them through pathalias to get optimal routes.

There are a bunch of 1988 map files here:
http://utzoo.superglobalmegacorp.com/usenet/news080f1/b101/comp/mail/maps/
and the file format is detailed here:
http://ftp.arnes.si/faq/comp/mail/maps/UUCP_map_for_README

Question: do we want to keep as much historical information as possible,
and just change the links to reflect our topology? Can we add new lines
to append the information needed now, e.g.

#N      seismo, beno, hugo, maui, noress, perry
#C      Rick Adams
#E      seismo!postmaster
#I	simh.tuhs.org:5000; Warren Toomey

Will pathalias ignore unrecognised lines?
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[TUHS] pathalias and mail maps

[Jacob Goense]

On 2017-03-10 11:29, Warren Toomey wrote:
> A few people have hit me with a clue bat: we probably should be using 
> the
> comp.mail.maps database format for our uucp/Usenet sites, as then we 
> can
> feed them through pathalias to get optimal routes.

Sure, nothing wrong with a separate free form txt/md file for dibs, 
sites
still under construction etc.. next to a strict one for pathalias use.

[TUHS] pathalias and mail maps

[Erik E. Fair]

Warren,
	The UUCP map data from comp.mail.maps is a two level format: one for pathalias(1) and the rest for various programs. Pathalias will ignore any line beginning in '#' - those are comments to it. Some of those comments have a format specification which other programs can effectively grep for and parse.

So, yes, you can add or modify any line beginning in '#' - pathalias won't care.

Given the Google archive of comp.mail.maps, you can pick your snapshot of the state of the UUCP network. The last one seems to be 1998.

	Erik

[TUHS] C-news is built

[John Floren]

Thanks Warren and Geoff,

Two problems:

1. 403 forbidden on that tarball

2. What's the best way to get these files into a running 4.3 system?

Thanks!

John

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 2:49 AM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> OK, Geoff Collyer has built the C-News binaries for the 4.2 emulated
> systems. They are temporarily at http://minnie.tuhs.org/Y5/Cnews/
>
> Does someone want to try and get them up and running on an emulated system?
>
> Also, I've build a 4.3BSD version of the emulated uucp systems. It's a
> separate branch at https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp. You can get it
> by doing:
>
> git clone https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp.git \
>         --branch 4.3BSD --single-branch
>
> Once it's solid enough I will make this the default branch, but I'll
> leave the 4.2BSD branch there as well.
>
> Thanks Geoff!
>         Warren

[TUHS] C-news is built

[Nick Downing]

To get files into a 4.3BSD SIMH system the easiest way is with a Python
script that blockifies the file by outputting a 32 bits length (say 0x400),
then that many bytes, then the length again, and repeat for next block
until done. There is also a Perl version floating around which is popular
for canned SIMH scripts/packages. Then you mount this file on tm0 (if I
recall) in SIMH and then in the emulated system it appears at /dev/mt0. I
normally use tar in conjunction but it's not necessary (note star is a
highly compatible tar implementation, I think it is by Joerg from this
list, although I use actual 4.3BSD tar compiled for Linux and I think gnu
tar also works mostly). I can send the details later, I am using phone atm.
Nick

On Mar 11, 2017 4:52 AM, "John Floren" <john at jfloren.net> wrote:

> Thanks Warren and Geoff,
>
> Two problems:
>
> 1. 403 forbidden on that tarball
>
> 2. What's the best way to get these files into a running 4.3 system?
>
> Thanks!
>
> John
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 2:49 AM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> > OK, Geoff Collyer has built the C-News binaries for the 4.2 emulated
> > systems. They are temporarily at http://minnie.tuhs.org/Y5/Cnews/
> >
> > Does someone want to try and get them up and running on an emulated
> system?
> >
> > Also, I've build a 4.3BSD version of the emulated uucp systems. It's a
> > separate branch at https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp. You can get
> it
> > by doing:
> >
> > git clone https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp.git \
> >         --branch 4.3BSD --single-branch
> >
> > Once it's solid enough I will make this the default branch, but I'll
> > leave the 4.2BSD branch there as well.
> >
> > Thanks Geoff!
> >         Warren
>
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[TUHS] C-news is built

[Henry Bent]

This method seems unnecessarily complex.  If you have libpcap networking,
attach xu (4.3bsd de0) to your ethernet interface and you can bring it up
(ifconfig de0) and talk to any machine on the local network except the one
hosting the SIMH instance. If you set up SIMH tap networking you can talk
to the hosting machine (
https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/0readme_ethernet.txt).  If you set
up your router (route add default x.x.x.x 1) you can talk to any host on
the internet numerically.  Now you can get files via ftp, rcp, etc.

You could also attach a tar file as any block device - RQ, RL, whatever -
and have tar read directly from the block device, which does not require
any sort of padding or modification of the original file.

I believe that 4.3's tar will understand most tar files, but if you have
problems you can always create (or recreate) a tar file using the "o"
option to output as an old style archive.

-Henry

On 10 March 2017 at 16:14, Nick Downing <downing.nick at gmail.com> wrote:

> To get files into a 4.3BSD SIMH system the easiest way is with a Python
> script that blockifies the file by outputting a 32 bits length (say 0x400),
> then that many bytes, then the length again, and repeat for next block
> until done. There is also a Perl version floating around which is popular
> for canned SIMH scripts/packages. Then you mount this file on tm0 (if I
> recall) in SIMH and then in the emulated system it appears at /dev/mt0. I
> normally use tar in conjunction but it's not necessary (note star is a
> highly compatible tar implementation, I think it is by Joerg from this
> list, although I use actual 4.3BSD tar compiled for Linux and I think gnu
> tar also works mostly). I can send the details later, I am using phone atm.
> Nick
>
> On Mar 11, 2017 4:52 AM, "John Floren" <john at jfloren.net> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Warren and Geoff,
>>
>> Two problems:
>>
>> 1. 403 forbidden on that tarball
>>
>> 2. What's the best way to get these files into a running 4.3 system?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 2:49 AM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>> > OK, Geoff Collyer has built the C-News binaries for the 4.2 emulated
>> > systems. They are temporarily at http://minnie.tuhs.org/Y5/Cnews/
>> >
>> > Does someone want to try and get them up and running on an emulated
>> system?
>> >
>> > Also, I've build a 4.3BSD version of the emulated uucp systems. It's a
>> > separate branch at https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp. You can get
>> it
>> > by doing:
>> >
>> > git clone https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp.git \
>> >         --branch 4.3BSD --single-branch
>> >
>> > Once it's solid enough I will make this the default branch, but I'll
>> > leave the 4.2BSD branch there as well.
>> >
>> > Thanks Geoff!
>> >         Warren
>>
>
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[TUHS] C-news is built

[Nick Downing]

In the dark mists of time I did have libpcap going and a 2.11BSD
system networked, but I haven't gotten around to figuring out how to
make that happen again. For my current experiments networking is
overkill, I just want a simple way to copy a file between host and
target. Indeed a lot of simulators provide just such a program,
although I guess that's harder in SIMH because of its large scope.

The block device method might be better though. I was unfamiliar with
how disklabels and how geometry worked in BSD, so I wasn't too sure if
this would work. It would be great if someone could try it. In the
meantime my method is tested and known to work, for bidirectional
transfer. I'm at my PC now so I'm attaching both the blocking script
(file2mt.py) and the deblocking script (mt2file.py). I have some simh
scripts for bringing up a 4.3BSD system but unfortunately they use
mkdisttap.pl (similar to file2mt.py) so I don't have a working example
of file2mt.py that I can just paste in, but I am happy to provide more
specific instructions if what I've posted already hasn't been enough.

cheers, Nick

On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com> wrote:
> This method seems unnecessarily complex.  If you have libpcap networking,
> attach xu (4.3bsd de0) to your ethernet interface and you can bring it up
> (ifconfig de0) and talk to any machine on the local network except the one
> hosting the SIMH instance. If you set up SIMH tap networking you can talk to
> the hosting machine
> (https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/0readme_ethernet.txt).  If you set
> up your router (route add default x.x.x.x 1) you can talk to any host on the
> internet numerically.  Now you can get files via ftp, rcp, etc.
>
> You could also attach a tar file as any block device - RQ, RL, whatever -
> and have tar read directly from the block device, which does not require any
> sort of padding or modification of the original file.
>
> I believe that 4.3's tar will understand most tar files, but if you have
> problems you can always create (or recreate) a tar file using the "o" option
> to output as an old style archive.
>
> -Henry
>
> On 10 March 2017 at 16:14, Nick Downing <downing.nick at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> To get files into a 4.3BSD SIMH system the easiest way is with a Python
>> script that blockifies the file by outputting a 32 bits length (say 0x400),
>> then that many bytes, then the length again, and repeat for next block until
>> done. There is also a Perl version floating around which is popular for
>> canned SIMH scripts/packages. Then you mount this file on tm0 (if I recall)
>> in SIMH and then in the emulated system it appears at /dev/mt0. I normally
>> use tar in conjunction but it's not necessary (note star is a highly
>> compatible tar implementation, I think it is by Joerg from this list,
>> although I use actual 4.3BSD tar compiled for Linux and I think gnu tar also
>> works mostly). I can send the details later, I am using phone atm.
>> Nick
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2017 4:52 AM, "John Floren" <john at jfloren.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Warren and Geoff,
>>>
>>> Two problems:
>>>
>>> 1. 403 forbidden on that tarball
>>>
>>> 2. What's the best way to get these files into a running 4.3 system?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 2:49 AM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>>> > OK, Geoff Collyer has built the C-News binaries for the 4.2 emulated
>>> > systems. They are temporarily at http://minnie.tuhs.org/Y5/Cnews/
>>> >
>>> > Does someone want to try and get them up and running on an emulated
>>> > system?
>>> >
>>> > Also, I've build a 4.3BSD version of the emulated uucp systems. It's a
>>> > separate branch at https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp. You can get
>>> > it
>>> > by doing:
>>> >
>>> > git clone https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp.git \
>>> >         --branch 4.3BSD --single-branch
>>> >
>>> > Once it's solid enough I will make this the default branch, but I'll
>>> > leave the 4.2BSD branch there as well.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks Geoff!
>>> >         Warren
>
>
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[TUHS] C-news is built

[Jason Stevens]

This is what I've been using for years...

http://gunkies.org/wiki/Mkdisttap.pl

I've been keeping interesting source code tapes here:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%20Tapes/Source%20Code/

And various binaries I've built under simh:


4.2
https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%20Tapes/4.2%20BSD/


4.3
https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%20Tapes/4.3%20BSD/

4.3 UWisc
https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%20Tapes/4.3%20BSD%20Uwisc/

On March 11, 2017 5:14:12 AM GMT+08:00, Nick Downing <downing.nick at gmail.com> wrote:
>To get files into a 4.3BSD SIMH system the easiest way is with a Python
>script that blockifies the file by outputting a 32 bits length (say
>0x400), then that many bytes, then the length again, and repeat for
>next
>block until done. There is also a Perl version floating around which is
>popular for canned SIMH scripts/packages. Then you mount this file on
>tm0 (if I recall) in SIMH and then in the emulated system it appears at
>/dev/mt0. I normally use tar in conjunction but it's not necessary
>(note
>star is a highly compatible tar implementation, I think it is by Joerg
>from this list, although I use actual 4.3BSD tar compiled for Linux and
>I think gnu tar also works mostly). I can send the details later, I am
>using phone atm.
>Nick
>
>On Mar 11, 2017 4:52 AM, "John Floren" < john at jfloren.net
><mailto:john at jfloren.net> > wrote:
>
>
>Thanks Warren and Geoff,
>
>Two problems:
>
>1. 403 forbidden on that tarball
>
>2. What's the best way to get these files into a running 4.3 system?
>
>Thanks!
>
>John
>
>On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 2:49 AM, Warren Toomey < wkt at tuhs.org
><mailto:wkt at tuhs.org> > wrote:
>> OK, Geoff Collyer has built the C-News binaries for the 4.2 emulated
>> systems. They are temporarily at http://minnie.tuhs.org/Y5/
><http://minnie.tuhs.org/Y5/Cnews/> Cnews/
>>
>> Does someone want to try and get them up and running on an emulated
>system?
>>
>> Also, I've build a 4.3BSD version of the emulated uucp systems. It's
>a
>> separate branch at https://github.com/DoctorWkt/
><https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp> 4bsd-uucp. You can get it
>> by doing:
>>
>> git clone https://github.com/DoctorWkt/
><https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp.git> 4bsd-uucp.git \
>>         --branch 4.3BSD --single-branch
>>
>> Once it's solid enough I will make this the default branch, but I'll
>> leave the 4.2BSD branch there as well.
>>
>> Thanks Geoff!
>>         Warren

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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[TUHS] C-news is built

[Warren Toomey]

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 10:52:09AM -0700, John Floren wrote:
> Thanks Warren and Geoff,
> 
> Two problems:
> 1. 403 forbidden on that tarball
> 2. What's the best way to get these files into a running 4.3 system?

My bad, permissions fixed. Assuming you have downloaded the git repository
and you have a directory you want converted into a tarball to feed into
the site5 system:

$ bsdtar cf - <directory> | ./mktape /dev/stdin > site5.tap

Then inside the simulated system

# mt rew
# tar vxf /dev/rmt12

Cheers, Warren
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[TUHS] C-news is built

[John Floren]

Thanks... I guess I could use some directions on how to get it set up,
I've edited the cnews config files to what I think is correct, but if
I postnews, then do newsrun and sendbatches and uucico, I don't see
anything on the other end.

john

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 2:34 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 10:52:09AM -0700, John Floren wrote:
>> Thanks Warren and Geoff,
>>
>> Two problems:
>> 1. 403 forbidden on that tarball
>> 2. What's the best way to get these files into a running 4.3 system?
>
> My bad, permissions fixed. Assuming you have downloaded the git repository
> and you have a directory you want converted into a tarball to feed into
> the site5 system:
>
> $ bsdtar cf - <directory> | ./mktape /dev/stdin > site5.tap
>
> Then inside the simulated system
>
> # mt rew
> # tar vxf /dev/rmt12
>
> Cheers, Warren

[TUHS] B-news source code

[Mary Ann Horton]

Where can I find source code for various versions of netnews?

In particular I'm looking for B news 2.10.1.

A historian is trying to track down where the ">" was first used in 
quoting news or email.  It's not in 2.10 (I do have that source code) 
but I suspect it's in 2.10.1.

If anyone recalls where this originated, please let me know.

Thanks!

   Mary Ann

[TUHS] B-news source code

[Larry McVoy]

Wouldn't this have happened first in email, like Mail or mailx?
Hard to say, I'd guess sometime in the 1980's?

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 04:05:56PM -0800, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
> Where can I find source code for various versions of netnews?
> 
> In particular I'm looking for B news 2.10.1.
> 
> A historian is trying to track down where the ">" was first used in quoting
> news or email.  It's not in 2.10 (I do have that source code) but I suspect
> it's in 2.10.1.
> 
> If anyone recalls where this originated, please let me know.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
>   Mary Ann

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

[TUHS] B-news source code

[Mary Ann Horton]

So you'd think, but it appears it came first in netnews. Mail/mailx has 
~m which indents with a tab, not a ">".  Most likely in summer of 1983, 
between 2.10 and 2.10.1.


On 03/10/2017 04:15 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> Wouldn't this have happened first in email, like Mail or mailx?
> Hard to say, I'd guess sometime in the 1980's?
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 04:05:56PM -0800, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
>> Where can I find source code for various versions of netnews?
>>
>> In particular I'm looking for B news 2.10.1.
>>
>> A historian is trying to track down where the ">" was first used in quoting
>> news or email.  It's not in 2.10 (I do have that source code) but I suspect
>> it's in 2.10.1.
>>
>> If anyone recalls where this originated, please let me know.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>    Mary Ann

[TUHS] B-news source code

[Dan Cross]

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:21 PM, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:

> So you'd think, but it appears it came first in netnews. Mail/mailx has ~m
> which indents with a tab, not a ">".  Most likely in summer of 1983,
> between 2.10 and 2.10.1.


Wasn't it possible to customize this in .mailrc? Something like, `set
indentprefix="> "`? I'm afraid that doesn't answer the question, but I'm
not sure mailx/Mail as the vector is unreasonable. Is it possible someone
coming from the ARPAnet mailing list world found Unix and brought the
practice in? I'm curious what the standard was on ITS or TOPS-20, for
instance.

        - Dan C.
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[TUHS] B-news source code

[Warren Toomey]

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 04:05:56PM -0800, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
> Where can I find source code for various versions of netnews?
> In particular I'm looking for B news 2.10.1.

2.10.3 is at http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/News/bnews.tar.gz

Looks like 2.10.1 is at
http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.9BSD/usr/contrib/news/

Cheers, Warren
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[TUHS] B-news source code

[Doug McIlroy]

> Wouldn't [> in quoted mail] have happened first in email, like Mail or mailx?

Mailx doesn't do it now, so it probably didn't do it then.

doug

[TUHS] B-news source code

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
 |> Wouldn't [> in quoted mail] have happened first in email, like Mail \
 |> or mailx?
 |
 |Mailx doesn't do it now, so it probably didn't do it then.

It seems to have entered Mail not before 1988, when Edward Wang
replaced the fixed "\t" prefix with a "tabstr" variable (he
credits Tom Newcomb, newcomb at arpa, for this).  In 1989 he
changed "tabstr" to "indentprefix" and quotes "to be Sun
compatible".

--steffen