From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 12833 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2023 21:02:46 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Jan 2023 21:02:46 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B4F0424C2; Tue, 3 Jan 2023 07:02:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f42.google.com (mail-lf1-f42.google.com [209.85.167.42]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2465424C1 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2023 07:02:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-f42.google.com with SMTP id y25so43068329lfa.9 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2023 13:02:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Bj3QsFI+D/tPz3JfQoiGlHadStUl2PWPRcqC+oAy6/k=; b=DvK+bNpNviYPtX3kDc5WE6sBY2tPURozN+lPCzECqbxlASM4qX2E8UxSeVoYjzWaon NT6/t04O38xIfu0r/Zz3VqkdvmKAoGmuZJd92MnLDLSZiiSdZx5e5Hkob+WmDyM1yfkM AG4g756ASy0W544ipLzCTIhiAV6Sp3/WdAEQbRKT2MwXu7qLCYmK0naoSPu2RoMhYkOJ 4CfBzJ6l5lCWLaIJfNpu5XhHmJLFmRHlOlInZnhA0OpXIVIP7ly25xg+o7C47G/3lXT5 wtubXorZr1PHSI3yjHdg2uZG1LwqCSUbaJ++0Zlt6ubZKpwNhRmHdGmjBZmWv9+77VyP OEuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Bj3QsFI+D/tPz3JfQoiGlHadStUl2PWPRcqC+oAy6/k=; b=i1jz3XytFyRFg1jhS9Qf6xzIchtfuSyexknFKr8tYPjXL14eDaozoW+isV8/5fiEmB xAmhsHrkmh/Pzxex2uEoKYp0hcCQgJJE/dJ5014Bqh6sLYG83HL94KC2UGl9IgKH/UEV tujrUGdxYtX20476I9sxMFrBgAMuBnVCoqj9IlIl41hV5k8RzQLD17Ssstlmaglrq+Mq UdgW69uyo4s7S0zBoQoiAgwwAh+iC9bH1wyWAtkkUaKE/3chr3+iSVV5uK2bFEuO29f3 ROKmxS1pXvL5cR+45t2DgilPD1cibJjX7tVAOUo/Me22erjNOYFxfjyn9I/28nDejP28 ktpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kq0+8xsCsbT+1dC/62lGanG4AoF69L4R19l8/ewy6U4nANEYKBH CDsvssTdmlR7xvvMIB/IYTJTcCjJu+q+f8ES1RC7gL7D X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXuhMYPyUQN7mZsWU62bI4KpJ+7aNdgCwf9EUgD/DZl33zt28UvHlA/w0FUP9k1OliPws0ys0T3jTiRelCzdnHg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:23a6:b0:4cb:bec:27e6 with SMTP id c38-20020a05651223a600b004cb0bec27e6mr1626313lfv.86.1672693295093; Mon, 02 Jan 2023 13:01:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230102165120.GK25547@mcvoy.com> <20230102174304.GM25547@mcvoy.com> <59004a29-5119-9dd9-c248-518b8c4e7928@makerlisp.com> <20230102180020.p6gmiwhrnidfbfsc@illithid> <20230102181242.GO25547@mcvoy.com> <20230102192114.2uu7f4ap55e6xtby@illithid> <20230102202422.qychfa24tnjuok4p@illithid> <20230102204103.GU25547@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20230102204103.GU25547@mcvoy.com> From: Dan Cross Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2023 16:00:58 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-ID-Hash: 5JPFZIBG7AE3MVULJRX73KZCKXU77RHP X-Message-ID-Hash: 5JPFZIBG7AE3MVULJRX73KZCKXU77RHP X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: A few comments on porting the Bourne shell List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 3:41 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Mon, Jan 02, 2023 at 02:24:22PM -0600, G. Branden Robinson wrote: > > At 2023-01-02T14:34:22-0500, Rich Salz wrote: > > > The difference is that "make" need only run on your build systems. > > > Installation scripts need to run on customer systems. > > > > Surprisingly (not really), I don't agree with this, either. > > > > make, like tsort, is a generally useful tool that people misconceive as > > being limited in scope to traditional compile-and-link software > > development. > > > > A dab of imagination and familiarity with existing tooling can save one > > much wheel reinvention. > > If we wanted to use Makefiles in our customer run product, we would have > shipped it. Couldn't you also ship a shell? That kinda seems like the simplest solution. I used to be pretty dogmatic about adherence to 7th Ed tools and syntax, but I think I'm like the frog in the pot where the temperature is slowly rising: I suspect I've let things creep in that are not portable to a universal intersection set, simply because I haven't noticed, because I'm no longer trying to run things on very old systems regularly. Will that script I wrote last week run on Ultrix? Beats me; I haven't powered up the DECstation in 15 years. But considering the issue raises a related question: practically speaking, what do you define as a least common denominator? For example, is `nawk` allowed, or just the traditional 7th Ed awk? How about extended regular expressions? GNU coreutils `egrep` now spits out a warning saying, "egrep is obsolescent; using grep -E" (I cannot adequately express how irritating I find this). Does `tr` need the square brackets? Etc. The shell by itself is just part of the equation, and as a programming environment, /bin/sh is not all that interesting unless complemented by a bunch of utilities, the portability of which seems less guaranteed than it once was. I actually think the shell is less of an issue; C is a bigger one for me. About a year ago, I set up some emulated systems on my local ham radio network (connected to AX.25 also!). Among them were Multics and TOPS-20, but also a VAX running 4.3BSD and 7th Ed on a PDP-11. But getting anything modern to build on either is a serious pain; speaking of shells, I was able to find what is (I think) the last version of tcsh to support 4.3 and get that to build. Then again, having 7th Ed around forces me to think about shell script portability again, so...there's that. :-) - Dan C.