From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16671 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2022 21:22:53 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Feb 2022 21:22:53 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6E2A99D6E1; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 07:22:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECBB89BDAE; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 07:22:17 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="ToSd0V7X"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 494F89BDAE; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 07:22:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oi1-f177.google.com (mail-oi1-f177.google.com [209.85.167.177]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A83F49B95E for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 07:22:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oi1-f177.google.com with SMTP id r27so13772955oiw.4 for ; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 13:22:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ALDnMS0tDXk6bh7x6F9YKnN+zquzyOpk9cmDzo1EGLw=; b=ToSd0V7X7/BTyDHLwg5qaI74svI2hJCt3ZwmBUKiB90N7zwyVCHVjFGfryY+ukS1a/ yDPYM2yEGlIVjvtvBOnUFWtKhUZLVQ76PdI1RYoJk+jSFr8M20eSODNtIJb09tHRXi6W i/Gryd9x050y3jTtIdjzDC6MMGzIzNdBuAA5i0pJkxp+1Uh3No1W22yix2OeSE6seKrj 7SC8iUVjUeszNmNah1nTqWieBpzSt/WkDg7HA8SqNbZSXlg3opOObx446D+qGan5vRKN fI8PKbCna8qIeaXyLctGJdi3KWlfbn4HF0D8/OyO15YqgXEfbQ4EUtDgy89FswePpKBS 6eeQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ALDnMS0tDXk6bh7x6F9YKnN+zquzyOpk9cmDzo1EGLw=; b=iOUZqEeelVbpCTmJsZIznHq0ni8IKbzDyBBVMehc4er8oqU4ZRi66G+x/KNXUJ4Atk KgEyRYiFY4erTlhzI8g7g/weuvtrkfCIW+ojQ7tiXto0hV01zuYbk/aWl7E7HQUhb9V7 bK3ndH/VrFoqrCxg9r4Mw91wnilYig35ffSKTJpGG1CKoQcpy1usdR9kAgj7gduDo6f+ GVPOjkmQ1VofpCOiTfSWipEhmjk1tCtT9X5gj8r65yl6UAWsk4id79h7QYZXG9JrPA1m OOkYABelBygzVFrIwd9+OYCYxZ4YCtJzaKy6ZsoWMZZY7IHRIHqGLSC05C57PbuxcXdI 12XA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533lQfyJNfpQxfslLtJix/svKmAooUi8AYmSQLtCOantuQ7eV2c3 2ZDQUt1hkdfJcB5mQopvap8x3LHfVy/Vl0A8syE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzoQvPL62yG+JvxVgqAhYyqXdqlxD3pB1KleAomfkP657db3T/+k/oP0BhaJBjyoQpyrWfM0UQh8PNbw/xKaIw= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4202:: with SMTP id p2mr2601952oia.163.1643750533923; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 13:22:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220201181909.6224518C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 16:21:37 -0500 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ac893705d6fb7eb0" Subject: Re: [TUHS] ratfor vibe X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Noel Chiappa Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000ac893705d6fb7eb0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 2:40 PM Clem Cole wrote: > Dan - thanks. > Sure thing. By the way: the thing I was thinking about earlier that was so biting towards OOP was an earlier version of Harper's post, in which he writes, "Object-oriented programming is eliminated entirely from the introductory curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-parallel by its very nature, and hence unsuitable for a modern CS curriculum." https://web.archive.org/web/20110321004746/https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/ (How's _that_ for an academic glove-slap?) It would appear that language was softened to read "unsuitable for our purposes" sometime in 2013, and then that rather inflammatory clause was removed entirely by early March, 2015. I had read the original and felt some schadenfreude. - Dan C. On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 2:10 PM Dan Cross wrote: > >> On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 1:49 PM Clem Cole wrote: >> >>> [snip] >>> FWIW: Through the 60s, the early and into the later 70s, CMU used to >>> call its 15-104 "Intro to Computer Programming" and was based on batch >>> (card) computing using FTN4, later WATFIV. They used a number of books. >>> The book I had was from Waterloo and other than being blue and black in >>> color, I remember little from it - since I already knew how and the TA let >>> me take 'self-taught' by turning in assignments/taking the tests without >>> going to class. Like Freshman Physics and Calc, all intro science >>> and engineering majors were required to take it however, since the >>> engineering depts were sure what you would see when you graduated was FTN >>> based code [which was probably true for the more pure Science types]. >>> Much later (many years after I left) the CS Dept finally convinced Mat >>> Sci, Chem E and Mech E to allow the course to be taught using Pascal. I >>> think they use either Java or Python now, but I haven't checked. >>> >> >> There was a bit of a stir about 10 years ago when CMU switched from Java >> (I think?) to Python and SML for introductory computer science education. I >> remember reading a report at the time, which I _think_ is this: >> http://reports-archive.adm.cs.cmu.edu/anon/2010/CMU-CS-10-140.pdf >> >> Though perhaps not, because it _really_ bit into Java and the whole OOP >> thing. >> >> Robert Harper had a blog post that I found interesting about exposing >> freshmen to functional programming: >> https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/ >> >> - Dan C. >> >> --000000000000ac893705d6fb7eb0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 2:40 PM Clem Cole = <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
=
Da= n - thanks.

Sure thing.

By the way: the thing I was thinking about earlier that w= as so biting towards OOP was an earlier version of Harper's post, in wh= ich he writes, "Object-oriented programming is eliminated entirely fro= m the introductory curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-par= allel by its very nature, and hence unsuitable for a modern CS curriculum.&= quot; https://web.arc= hive.org/web/20110321004746/https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/1= 5/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/ (How's _that_ for an academic glove-slap= ?)

It would appear that language=C2=A0was softened= to read "unsuitable for our purposes" sometime in 2013, and then= that rather inflammatory=C2=A0clause was removed entirely by early March, = 2015. I had read the original and felt some schadenfreude.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 2:10 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
=
On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 1:49 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
[snip]=
FWIW: =C2=A0Thr= ough the 60s, the early and into the later 70s, CMU used to call its 15-104= "Intro to Computer Programming" and was based on batch (card) co= mputing using FTN4, later WATFIV.=C2=A0 They used a number of books.=C2=A0 = The book I had was from Waterloo and other than being blue and black in col= or, I remember little from it - since I already knew how and the TA let me = take 'self-taught' by turning in assignments/taking the tests witho= ut going to class.=C2=A0 Like Freshman Physics and=C2=A0Calc, all intro sci= ence and=C2=A0engineering majors were required to take it however, since th= e engineering depts were sure what you would see when you graduated was=C2= =A0FTN based code [which was probably true for the more pure Science types]= . =C2=A0 Much later (many years after I left) =C2=A0the=C2=A0CS Dept finall= y convinced Mat Sci, Chem E and Mech E to allow the course=C2=A0to be taugh= t using Pascal.=C2=A0 I think they use either Java or Python now, but I hav= en't checked.

There w= as a bit of a stir about 10 years ago when CMU switched from Java (I think?= ) to Python and SML for introductory computer science education. I remember= reading a report at the time, which I _think_ is this:=C2=A0http://reports-archive.adm.cs.cmu.edu/anon/2010/CMU-CS-10-140.pdf



= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

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