From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 3de2a71f for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 02:00:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6C4F9A1E55; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 12:00:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2805AA1A8F; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 11:59:48 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=AvvwDFeH; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3A416A1A8F; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 11:59:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f182.google.com (mail-qk1-f182.google.com [209.85.222.182]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AE55A1A20 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 11:59:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f182.google.com with SMTP id j7-v6so8744466qkd.13 for ; Thu, 06 Sep 2018 18:59:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MX+Lt5W1o0IGgrMnUXV3l/PBdKuYcNpMPaT9fNgdeco=; b=AvvwDFeHmXe83vuYxbvlbjYzsi3IMdqFUiSdXq3HsOt3Je7Kc8a+KJrH2ajExmu0CP 8I9JvaS6KnuaXiXPzw249zC8R7WXb5jinKRPy14EFRVtM4jYZoV+e842F8cdvD/d8ZIZ OUmxjlfALmXbZFPjvlJuVziSMIkqeSJpXJIKQly58Y2RQZJVtfiK5iVNwiIZPGlnTc66 p7/v5cNCgO9VH97uPZkQJARHGwGxcCNfZtPOdw96y87LE6BSfTZZuHO1/lZ4oa7iBUVJ Egill9YiVIEqUy4yyGm+xsH1WRe6iX1dFQplrTvsDcCQg7ioiI5yOxPxo98WXMT5zAg7 AWyg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MX+Lt5W1o0IGgrMnUXV3l/PBdKuYcNpMPaT9fNgdeco=; b=lnaA8a6WnukQkaQJoeCeS8ZoOfMDHMhBbuWadH9C0Yb4mVEBip2WwOtNFOXHbDLBFl /sQMaFlhXiAQBI/spzpyQSVPB5aQ6V+vif1gWNMjo1/sNhz0qlTife3+VpuCbsIrsZqY ByTAxqcAlR/86ZrPEb0guUUnuKOmphi7Q2mh3kVUoQk+HKi2x5LySdgPnhAHDDGPiHBf A2AUrL6Mozey3WDJd8sdFnQsHw/1ygT0iktAvb0L0nbU5CT1wcerVlc/q7yTKzr6Ue2X GcsySxXu7iv6PB5BdIjv7lMJ8htspRlVjO3ilbwkSfjzk5pZIMQ7hZUKCxqwcy+bF3Rf jtJg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51D+wpgeyEvALIzHQq2iFYnurf7rB60FJbs0r3RREMT4/OwYQ8N7 l5dMYqPooDg1Vv/b7M7EldSNBm6lc7dYw3rJVR0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdYE+LOb20nF63KkWiyzavRK+MCB6aZovZalH/QgQDQ/8nZT8pN6NAZkKqs/GSEMO0QcCd05q/9x5V9fDLYQnBo= X-Received: by 2002:a37:7b45:: with SMTP id w66-v6mr4342377qkc.39.1536285582720; Thu, 06 Sep 2018 18:59:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20180831215636.-eCEx%ca6c@bitmessage.ch> <20180903180401.u4MVs%ca6c@bitmessage.ch> <20180903181133.GB81368@wopr> <20180903185616.ZnkRk%ca6c@bitmessage.ch> <5b9187be.JqdXbAJqb0gb8I/y%akosela@andykosela.com> <5b91a268.lXqMJkXVvoGUv0XA%akosela@andykosela.com> In-Reply-To: <5b91a268.lXqMJkXVvoGUv0XA%akosela@andykosela.com> From: Dan Cross Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 21:59:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: Andy Kosela Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e874605753e5cea" Subject: Re: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000006e874605753e5cea Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:56 PM Andy Kosela wrote: > [snip] Well, you can't tell me > this system was designed with the idea of running it using text terminal > and no mouse. I won't, because it wouldn't be true. You are correct that it was always intended to be used with a graphical console. But you keep talking about "text terminals" and therein lies the confusion: our text terminals haven't been purely "text" since the teletype days. Even green-screen serial terminals have graphics adapters to draw characters on the screen. There is also no cursor addressing, no curses. Actually, there *is* a graphical program to emulate a vt-series terminal, but pretty much no one uses it. So while strictly speaking this is incorrect, it is essentially correct for all intents and purposes. But it begs the question: why would you *want* to use that sort of interface? That was appropriate for an HP or DEC terminal connected via a low-bandwidth link (e.g., serial) or a shared host computer. Once we moved onto personal workstation-class machines with graphics adapters, why continue with that paradigm? Your framebuffer doesn't care that, '\033[H\033[J' means "move the cursor to the upper-left corner and clear the current line to the end of the screen", so why should your terminal emulator? For that matter, if logged into the text-only console on a Linux or FreeBSD machine, why does running `stty` say your graphics adapter has a BAUD rate? The plan9 authors decided to leave such historical debris behind. > Like I > written before it was born in the different era -- they tried to not > build it on the idea of character based TTY, but rather incorporate > graphical element into it. > Correct. I wasn't there, but the observation surely must have been in part that the user was *already* using a graphical environment, just not to very good effect. If it is possible to be fully productive in Plan 9 using just VGA text > mode (720x400) and not any of the bitmap modes, with Unix like cursor > addressing and with no rio(1) and no mouse then it's something I never > really explored. > You could skip `rio` and just run `vt` on the console. I doubt the emulation is very good and it wouldn't be an acceptable substitute for serious use. `vt` was really intended as a stop-gap for accessing older systems; the plan9 model was different, and instead of accessing remote resources, the idea was that those resources would be shared with the (plan9) network and imported locally for manipulation. That is, I wouldn't `ssh` into some machine to make use of something on it; instead I'd use `import` to bring those resources into my namespace locally and I'd manipulate them there. I did a writeup of this a while back: http://pub.gajendra.net/2016/05/plan9part1 I should probably do parts 2 and 3.... - Dan C. --0000000000006e874605753e5cea Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:56 PM Andy Kosela <akosela@andykosela.com> wrote:
[snip]=C2=A0 Well, you can't tel= l me
this system was designed with the idea of running it using text terminal and no mouse.

I won't, because it would= n't be true. You are correct that it was always intended to be used wit= h a graphical console. But you keep talking about "text terminals"= ; and therein lies the confusion: our text terminals haven't been purel= y "text" since the teletype days. Even green-screen serial termin= als have graphics adapters to draw characters on the screen.

=
There is also no cu= rsor addressing, no curses.

Actually, there= *is* a graphical program to emulate a vt-series terminal, but pretty much = no one uses it. So while strictly speaking this is incorrect, it is essenti= ally correct for all intents and purposes.

But it = begs the question: why would you *want* to use that sort of interface? That= was appropriate for an HP or DEC terminal connected via a low-bandwidth li= nk (e.g., serial) or a shared host computer. Once we moved onto personal wo= rkstation-class machines with graphics adapters, why continue with that par= adigm? Your framebuffer doesn't care that, '\033[H\033[J' means= "move the cursor to the upper-left corner and clear the current line = to the end of the screen", so why should your terminal emulator? For t= hat matter, if logged into the text-only console on a Linux or FreeBSD mach= ine, why does running `stty` say your graphics adapter has a BAUD rate? The= plan9 authors decided to leave such historical debris behind.
= =C2=A0
Like I
written before it was born in the different era -- they tried to not
build it on the idea of character based TTY, but rather incorporate
graphical element into it.

Correct. I w= asn't there, but the observation surely must have been in part that the= user was *already* using a graphical environment, just not to very good ef= fect.

If it is possible to be fully productive in Plan 9 using just VGA text
mode (720x400) and not any of the bitmap modes, with Unix like cursor
addressing and with no rio(1) and no mouse then it's something I never<= br> really explored.

You could skip `rio` a= nd just run `vt` on the console. I doubt the emulation is very good and it = wouldn't be an acceptable substitute for serious use. `vt` was really i= ntended as a stop-gap for accessing older systems; the plan9 model was diff= erent, and instead of accessing remote resources, the idea was that those r= esources would be shared with the (plan9) network and imported locally for = manipulation. That is, I wouldn't `ssh` into some machine to make use o= f something on it; instead I'd use `import` to bring those resources in= to my namespace locally and I'd manipulate them there.

=
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