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From: Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com>
To: Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com>
Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org
Subject: [TUHS] Re: FD 2
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 10:35:25 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W5LGcJrWAueKQES0H2L=EG+BkzZ83KmZMxQE=AtE1pn7w@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20230130152703.GE12306@mcvoy.com>

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:27 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:16:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:02 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 07:09:55PM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
> > > > And then we have pttys, speaking of pitys.
> > >
> > > I'm not seeing how you do stuff like ssh into a remote system and have
> > > job control, etc, work without some sort of tty.
> >
> > You don't. But perhaps that model isn't super great.
> >
> > There was no job control on plan9 and I can't say I ever missed it. If
> > I needed another terminal, I just swept open another window. Job
> > control, even remote access a la SSH (or telnet, or rlogin), are a bit
> > of an historical accident. If, instead, my computing environment is
> > the set of shared resources I've imported into my system, then I don't
> > necessarily need something like that. The plan9 `cpu` command, for
> > access to a remote CPU server, conceptually brought the CPU server to
> > you, not the other way around.
> >
> > It was a very different model.
>
> $ vi foo.c
> hack, hack
> ^Z
> $ make
> test test test, broken
> $ fg
>
> Yes, I could do that in 2 different terminals but that mode of working
> is extremely useful, works when I don't have a windowing system, I'm
> on the console.
>
> Not having that model is a deal breaker for me, and I suspect a non
> trivial number of other people.

Yup. That's a way to work, and if you work with Unix, it's a common one.

Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar with Unix
didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a different
way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing mental models
and workflows into the new environment unchanged. There was no `vi` on
plan9, either; well, there was, but it was a MIPS emulator, not a text
editor. But with the `acme` editor, your active text editor panes and
your terminal window were all part of the editor itself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1xVpMPn8M

At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a widespread
replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, but
rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9.

        - Dan C.

  reply	other threads:[~2023-01-30 15:37 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 69+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-01-20 22:44 [TUHS] " ron minnich
2023-01-20 22:54 ` [TUHS] " G. Branden Robinson
2023-01-20 22:56 ` Rob Pike
2023-01-20 23:11   ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-20 23:14     ` Rob Pike
2023-01-20 23:22       ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-20 23:13 ` Douglas McIlroy
2023-01-21  3:37 ` Jon Steinhart
2023-01-21 15:42 ` Clem Cole
2023-01-21 17:34   ` Warner Losh
2023-01-21 17:50     ` Warner Losh
2023-01-21 18:26       ` Clem Cole
2023-01-21 18:37         ` Warner Losh
2023-01-22 11:05           ` Jonathan Gray
2023-01-22 21:23           ` Warner Losh
2023-01-22 22:10             ` ron minnich
2023-01-23  7:30             ` arnold
2023-01-23  8:32               ` James Johnston
2023-01-23  8:58                 ` G. Branden Robinson
2023-01-23 11:49                   ` Brantley Coile
2023-01-23 14:25                     ` Ronald Natalie
2023-01-23 17:43                       ` Brantley Coile
2023-01-23 16:59                 ` Douglas McIlroy
2023-01-24  7:21                   ` arnold
2023-01-29 18:51             ` Warner Losh
2023-01-29 19:20               ` Ron Natalie
2023-01-29 20:25                 ` Warner Losh
2023-01-30  7:50                   ` arnold
2023-01-30  8:09                     ` Rob Pike
2023-01-30 15:02                       ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 15:16                         ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 15:27                           ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 15:35                             ` Dan Cross [this message]
2023-01-30 15:45                               ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 16:09                                 ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 16:18                                   ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 19:03                                     ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 19:12                                       ` Brantley Coile
2023-01-30 21:24                                       ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 22:15                                         ` Rob Pike
2023-01-30 22:50                                           ` ron minnich
2023-01-30 23:05                                           ` [TUHS] Child of plan9? (Re: " Bakul Shah
2023-01-31  3:19                                             ` [TUHS] " Andrew Warkentin
2023-01-30 16:21                                   ` [TUHS] " Steve Nickolas
2023-01-30 16:27                                     ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 16:32                                       ` ron minnich
2023-01-30 16:40                                       ` Clem Cole
2023-01-30 19:55                                       ` Lawrence Stewart
2023-01-31 21:27                                     ` Dave Horsfall
2023-01-30 16:48                                   ` Theodore Ts'o
2023-01-30 16:57                                   ` Andy Kosela
2023-01-30 17:04                                     ` Warner Losh
2023-01-30 20:38                                       ` Theodore Ts'o
2023-01-30 21:01                                         ` Warner Losh
2023-01-30 21:10                                         ` Clem Cole
2023-01-30 16:03                           ` Bakul Shah
2023-01-30 16:07                             ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 16:13                               ` Bakul Shah
2023-01-30 16:22                                 ` Steve Nickolas
2023-01-30 16:17                               ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 16:18                             ` Ralph Corderoy
2023-01-30 16:41                               ` [TUHS] job control (Re: " Bakul Shah
2023-01-30 19:07                               ` [TUHS] " Dan Cross
2023-01-30 13:26                     ` John Cowan
2023-01-30 14:30                       ` arnold
2023-01-30  0:25                 ` Phil Budne
2023-01-30  2:08                   ` Warner Losh
2023-01-21 18:27     ` Clem Cole
2023-01-22 10:56       ` Jaap Akkerhuis via TUHS

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