From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 10435 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2023 15:37:14 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2023 15:37:14 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE345425DB; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 01:37:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f52.google.com (mail-lf1-f52.google.com [209.85.167.52]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21F69425DA for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 01:37:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-f52.google.com with SMTP id cf42so19610852lfb.1 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 07:37:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=r880J4NA7bVnR09xX2XJSmjxhkGG4ua/GoGVB3NqhrI=; b=c1e2hkHHlEExXaKWQgZ2gm0IAT/NupWOi0lrFXFprOF4e/KV1r0FNxa5+rQw2tXy/q uDM48J1E2o7CoFCRYUoaUiamMLzangvbQ4Tw+pa4uD0Gyu5f6dI/q8SzItIG4e+SeCXA gFtU0awp75u7i0TsrldYg47QlQF/Ud3+J2WgRZZkbnizbs2/o6PPFSkqbtMMeyYf9a7O whAW1A1nxgSpj6vFB4CgJew/zidSW0c/kbicSiTlT9PJOX84wKi7HUF9gwcG3ctuPAnj SsWt8VlJWRlfizrCsdw/U70GFxaXReGulgeLeFiP4uKGFNgXsytAj/D8znhrKosZFr08 fI4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=r880J4NA7bVnR09xX2XJSmjxhkGG4ua/GoGVB3NqhrI=; b=cBTKkvVtdUxrAq3LK4NlzbL8vkzCfbXzwEJ/AdgfmNNFMbvbDyNSBaQm+xUoC5rhrk kFmP523qjf1+cnIl0IGX9YVewGeC25pbB5aWRGL9QtwHK8RoSBY3ptwUeZRUH9g2e0Lg XQeJTW2spN2Fa6FAO3D5zFqZrRc1PTrMJygYcZoiyHYJ0DDWieennLUpslGo/Ax4jgFr 8b+z26Y1E0Exzmg/b8qC4w0csCea7peXyeCU3um38Y1qt/BT6eYTkFk1PUErwTy7clzv fYp4cmWD8nBL58n7Ckk2wasYCG+NWVWheDaGGwQOXX5NCObNl4hWosv0GER61Pr5vrzl si6w== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2krG3xVJ8UGYRkJ9cBUkADAJAoL+qa8bDNjH8ON1vFFenQXHQ31P skbReO+fmI2RTe5yRmQqkFHdbdTxsVlwUkx1Se4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXvRuskShoZQR4Bkw3BvTJB3Pb4SZKc5WpNu5zg1s+95nAJ6nGkOVzENB7m0o3RidOVPddSJ6ANZGZsCCEu2QlQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:2316:b0:4d1:2056:5180 with SMTP id o22-20020a056512231600b004d120565180mr3655490lfu.227.1675092962221; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 07:36:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202301300750.30U7oQTh013304@freefriends.org> <20230130150219.GD12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130152703.GE12306@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20230130152703.GE12306@mcvoy.com> From: Dan Cross Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 10:35:25 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-ID-Hash: 3Z24VPUEAYDKGXMMZDJRRCBYAEFTFP2A X-Message-ID-Hash: 3Z24VPUEAYDKGXMMZDJRRCBYAEFTFP2A X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: FD 2 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:27 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:16:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:02 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 07:09:55PM +1100, Rob Pike wrote: > > > > And then we have pttys, speaking of pitys. > > > > > > I'm not seeing how you do stuff like ssh into a remote system and have > > > job control, etc, work without some sort of tty. > > > > You don't. But perhaps that model isn't super great. > > > > There was no job control on plan9 and I can't say I ever missed it. If > > I needed another terminal, I just swept open another window. Job > > control, even remote access a la SSH (or telnet, or rlogin), are a bit > > of an historical accident. If, instead, my computing environment is > > the set of shared resources I've imported into my system, then I don't > > necessarily need something like that. The plan9 `cpu` command, for > > access to a remote CPU server, conceptually brought the CPU server to > > you, not the other way around. > > > > It was a very different model. > > $ vi foo.c > hack, hack > ^Z > $ make > test test test, broken > $ fg > > Yes, I could do that in 2 different terminals but that mode of working > is extremely useful, works when I don't have a windowing system, I'm > on the console. > > Not having that model is a deal breaker for me, and I suspect a non > trivial number of other people. Yup. That's a way to work, and if you work with Unix, it's a common one. Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar with Unix didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a different way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing mental models and workflows into the new environment unchanged. There was no `vi` on plan9, either; well, there was, but it was a MIPS emulator, not a text editor. But with the `acme` editor, your active text editor panes and your terminal window were all part of the editor itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1xVpMPn8M At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a widespread replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, but rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9. - Dan C.