From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id dd636d42 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:22:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7915E9BCE8; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:22:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E95729BCE3; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:22:22 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="OavxTJlR"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 1D1769BCE3; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:22:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f176.google.com (mail-qk1-f176.google.com [209.85.222.176]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A821A9BCDE for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 03:22:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f176.google.com with SMTP id h4so10898171qkm.0 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:22:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TPDPg7N1+zpB1s15iKfvywn0/io3EKvpgDoSTmsOd/k=; b=OavxTJlRBP6flfiE49IW/85Ary1ZhVBVkdF8xjeAZSp16UtvpCJlS4dXV4+TpRDk2Q Qo3TX7TGiTfLK8SJZdUN9t+KGGIvwJrax9YAi9MSZ5hUChUydTfV0QDMJTRfd+ogpwhM uXpWvFO2n34EaDkLGMmMX/HMaFwOXzpavjg+IS26alYEEtJD93iL4qgW6OfKZz3nmbLO z1/t/erWX6jiEL/7RWxxpPDAG2Hl8sAfnrrXqmUnnC1OfYqitjLkJD0GUx/MAG+AW6H/ /yFPJGqOufGVaKcrt3NA7REdIYbdiaiCuSQwcLcxIeTjeDHiF7pTEYDIvlUix4SPbwcK ZrGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TPDPg7N1+zpB1s15iKfvywn0/io3EKvpgDoSTmsOd/k=; b=MagJ77VpK7L91Rr+CgaQtRixVQQO9p6brWO7dWDWoC+tlgdq56G16qSyc7kgFsZLOX HvrWf4MDGopRK9oxVnxjJIDvcc21J31xP3Ox30LxiPTDu2g/f2hPdbxt5o5Tf89yah6u 0kg+ZJF9IP59LqWKQE7CMnjLb90caSKxA8ss6IJgRNh7Zjrc6E+UEQMoR+kvJLryF2c/ f3uewPhB3Oj9eR/P6A8dRDTMWkGJB5sck+7nlviuj/bh0XcTO3L/0Yev5eWVJ1/FwAFn EUek3eZjNdr7beRevF4yu/wTfz8RyigeVwOM0l+eTV4+CA20d9kaIygFxWlwtLoDhckK H7+w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXG76umYaxUqCDYeReiPTvbPhcJdHZ027vJN5r+71LhJO2Bm1Pb OaoZHc7MreBI22XE3k3KmO0AJWmmfrfi0QbOOyg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxnuVwqLqcBQchy3OUYBNQH1Vyr0J9UqUf6zaIgHr9yF+8xYwt1Ch2aopesu+m1+OnIWQ3oOtSHkITtQNzrP5A= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1650:: with SMTP id c16mr7213121qko.346.1581441740890; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:22:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002110332.01B3WwWE015186@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> In-Reply-To: <202002110332.01B3WwWE015186@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> From: Dan Cross Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 12:21:44 -0500 Message-ID: To: Doug McIlroy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000032e7ec059e5019f7" Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000032e7ec059e5019f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 10:34 PM Doug McIlroy wrote: > Postel's principle: "be conservative in what you do, be liberal > in what you accept from others" was doctrine in early HTML > specs, and led to disastrous disagreement among browsers' > interpretation of web pages. Sadly, the "principle" lives on > despite its having been expunged from the HTML spec. > I think this is a bit unfair. Postel was working in an environment where he was fighting an uphill battle to get the Internet going and, perhaps more importantly, taken seriously: I still vividly remember the derision that was heaped on it as a "research toy" and how the "real" implementation was going to sweep it away, usually in the form of ISO/OSI. An argument can be made that the Internet's installed base and the fact that it largely worked despite imperfect implementations headed off that particular trainwreck. Indeed, one wonders if it would have even been viable as a research project had the early ARPAnet and Internet implementors taken a hard stance on correctness. That said, the HTML thing has always felt like a debacle to me, right from the beginning. It was an anaemic language delivered over a ridiculously bad protocol (HTTP 0.9 or whatever).I fully confess that I completely missed the World Wide Web thing when it first arrived on the scene. To my TeX and troff trained eyes used to interactive protocols, I couldn't see the point. Boy was I wrong! - Dan C. --00000000000032e7ec059e5019f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 10:34 PM Doug McI= lroy <doug@cs.dartmouth.edu= > wrote:
Postel's principle: "be conservative in wha= t you do, be liberal
in what you accept from others" was doctrine in early HTML
specs, and led to disastrous disagreement among browsers'
interpretation of web pages. Sadly, the "principle" lives on
despite its having been expunged from the HTML spec.
<= br>
I think this is a bit unfair.

Postel= was working in an environment where he was fighting an uphill battle to ge= t the Internet going and, perhaps more importantly, taken seriously: I stil= l vividly remember the derision that was heaped on it as a "research t= oy" and how the "real" implementation was going to sweep it = away, usually in the form of ISO/OSI. An argument can be made that the Inte= rnet's installed base and the fact that it largely worked despite imper= fect implementations headed off that particular trainwreck. Indeed, one won= ders if it would have even been viable as a research project had the early = ARPAnet and Internet implementors taken a hard stance on correctness.
=

That said, the HTML thing has always felt like a debacl= e to me, right from the beginning.=C2=A0 It was an anaemic language deliver= ed over a ridiculously bad protocol (HTTP 0.9 or whatever).I fully confess = that I completely missed the World Wide Web thing when it first arrived on = the scene.=C2=A0 To my TeX and troff trained eyes used to interactive proto= cols, I couldn't see the point. Boy was I wrong!

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

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