From: crossd@gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Subject: [TUHS] Mach for i386 / Mt Xinu or other
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 20:50:45 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W5fRdTfUWM3gMs6oxYQdjGnPu3p8ipD-jQZbrNseEEHQw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2O6QxqBjQ4KKpG1u3U60KQbvHmRJR+NHhy3W4s-aCyRqA@mail.gmail.com>
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On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:02 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> So there is a question here, though, and I'm curious to see what others
>> who
>> were closer to the action think. Why _did_ Linux succeed, and not a Unix
>> derivative? (Is there any work which looks at this question? Some Linux
>> history? If not, there should be.)
>>
>
> I've thought and written a bit about this question a bit [
> Would it be possible/advantageous to rewrite the Linux kernel in Rust when
> the language is stable?
> <https://www.quora.com/Would-it-be-possible-advantageous-to-rewrite-the-Linux-kernel-in-Rust-when-the-language-is-stable>
> &
> Why did Unix succeed and not Multics
> <https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Unix-succeed-and-not-Multics> ]
>
> and I'll not repeat all of here but
> as one of the people that did switch from 386BSD to linux at the time,
> the reason for me was purely because of the AT&T/BSDi case. You are
> right, I wanted a "free" (i.e. very inexpensive) UNIX for the 386 and the
> "big guns" were not going to give it. I thought we had it the 386 port
> BSD which I had helped in a small way to create.
>
> But I like, most hackers of the day, misunderstood incorrectly the case
> to be about *trade secret *and the all based around the 1956 consent
> decree, IBM vs AT&T; telephones and the computers. I was worried AT&T
> would win because it was going to hard to cleaim that that the BSD code was
> not a derivative work of the AT&T *copyright code base *(not
> understanding the *trade secret* and the *copyright* difference
> mattered).
>
> So...I switched to Linux *not because I thought it was "better"* - in
> fact, I b*tched (and still do) about many gratuitous differences, but as I
> knew that we needed something for "consumer" HW (which was bring driven by
> the WINTEL economics), and I was willing to use the "lessor" technology
> (Linux) because it was "good enough" and gave me what I needed (UNIX on a
> PC/386). I thought (incorrectly) somehow original Linux's European
> authorship was going to protect me and my fellow hackers ever though it was
> not as good as my beloved BSD system.
>
> Simple put - using Christiansen's theories: Linux "won" because:
>
> - it was "good enough",
> - had a lot of people behind it that valued that was there and
> invested in making it "better", and
> - the economics of the platform (PC/386 - WINTEL etc) was on the
> fastest grow curve [and its Christiansen's economic disruption was
> displacing the Mini & Workstation].
>
>
> BTW: at the time, I argued with the Roger Gourd and the OSF folks, that if
> they released (sold) the OSF/1 RI uK which had not AT&T technology in it
> (again thinking Copyright not Trade Secret); I was suggesting $100/copy
> there was a market for it. I just could not get them interested.
>
> Sun has done the RoadRunner and had their 386 port of Solaris; but again.
> All the "UNIX" folks were still interested in pushing out "iron" so were
> blind to the WINTEL economic disruption.
>
> Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda .... sigh
>
If I may, I think there was an additional thing at play: Linux was
essentially Unix.
Linux "won" because people wanted low-cost or free (as in gratis) Unix with
source that could run on modest commodity hardware, and Unix wasn't
available at a price point that was reasonable for most individuals
(certainly not with source). The people working on successor systems
weren't trying to reinvent Unix: they were working on new systems that
weren't Unix, but that's not what people wanted: Unix was good enough and
people were familiar and comfortable with it and that's what they wanted.
So Linux comes along and it's basically a "simplest possible solution"
Unix, freely available, runs on a PC, comes with source, and wasn't mired
in a lawsuit brought by a major US company. It was the right thing in the
right place at the right time.
I think there's a network effect that blinds a lot of folks to this
reality. Most of the folks on this list had access to Unix source and, with
no disrespect intended, it's easy to lose sight of what a big deal that
was. But unless you were in a position to already have access to it, it was
remarkably difficult to come by. Linux filled a gap that a lot of people
were looking to have filled.
- Dan C.
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2017-02-22 1:50 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 100+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2017-02-21 12:02 Noel Chiappa
2017-02-21 12:24 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2017-02-21 12:57 ` Michael Kjörling
2017-02-21 15:02 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-22 1:50 ` Dan Cross [this message]
2017-02-22 2:25 ` Steve Nickolas
2017-02-22 3:11 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-22 4:07 ` Dan Cross
2017-02-22 4:17 ` Larry McVoy
2017-02-23 15:31 ` Nemo
2017-02-23 16:00 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-23 16:50 ` Nemo
2017-02-23 22:02 ` Dave Horsfall
2017-02-24 1:30 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-24 20:54 ` Dave Horsfall
2017-02-24 1:01 ` Jason Stevens
2017-02-22 10:16 ` jsteve
2017-02-21 15:15 ` Chet Ramey
2017-02-21 16:47 ` Larry McVoy
2017-02-21 18:58 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-21 19:21 ` Larry McVoy
2017-02-21 20:17 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-21 20:28 ` Steve Nickolas
2017-02-21 20:32 ` Larry McVoy
2017-02-21 22:58 ` Wesley Parish
2017-02-22 1:19 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-22 1:35 ` [TUHS] Sun NFS version 2.0 Arthur Krewat
2017-02-22 1:46 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-22 13:33 ` Arthur Krewat
2017-02-23 23:48 ` Arthur Krewat
2017-02-24 7:47 ` arnold
2017-02-22 2:07 ` Cory Smelosky
2017-02-22 13:25 ` Arthur Krewat
2017-02-22 3:17 ` Larry McVoy
2017-02-22 8:43 ` arnold
2017-02-24 20:57 ` Warren Toomey
2017-02-24 22:09 ` Warren Toomey
2017-02-26 10:50 ` Josh Good
2017-02-22 9:00 ` [TUHS] Mach for i386 / Mt Xinu or other jsteve
2017-02-22 0:52 ` Andy Kosela
2017-02-22 1:04 ` ron minnich
2017-02-22 1:33 ` jason-tuhs
2017-02-22 3:18 ` Larry McVoy
2017-02-22 3:45 ` ron minnich
2017-02-22 4:06 ` Larry McVoy
2017-02-22 4:11 ` Larry McVoy
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2017-02-26 18:33 Norman Wilson
2017-02-28 20:26 ` Dave Horsfall
2017-02-22 3:51 Rudi Blom
2017-02-22 1:22 Rudi Blom
2017-02-22 3:08 ` Cory Smelosky
2017-02-21 21:49 Noel Chiappa
2017-02-21 23:10 ` Nick Downing
2017-02-21 23:14 ` Arthur Krewat
2017-02-21 16:25 Noel Chiappa
2017-02-21 4:16 Doug McIlroy
2017-02-20 6:38 Rudi Blom
2017-02-19 5:48 Jason Stevens
2017-02-17 16:55 Noel Chiappa
2017-02-17 20:04 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-17 15:47 Atindra Chaturvedi
2017-02-16 7:28 [TUHS] Mushi and Bagu Rudi Blom
2017-02-16 9:36 ` jsteve
2017-02-16 10:42 ` Nick Downing
2017-02-16 13:49 ` Rudi Blom
2017-02-17 11:30 ` [TUHS] Mach for i386 / Mt Xinu or other jsteve
2017-02-17 14:22 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-17 16:13 ` Chet Ramey
2017-02-17 14:29 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-17 17:23 ` Warner Losh
2017-02-18 22:25 ` Nemo
2017-02-19 6:20 ` jsteve
2017-02-19 7:01 ` Steve Nickolas
2017-02-19 13:46 ` Jason Stevens
2017-02-19 15:44 ` Larry McVoy
2017-02-20 18:14 ` Joerg Schilling
2017-02-20 22:24 ` Larry McVoy
2017-02-20 23:16 ` Steve Johnson
2017-02-20 23:18 ` Larry McVoy
2017-02-20 23:25 ` Steve Johnson
2017-02-20 23:20 ` Steve Nickolas
2017-02-21 0:12 ` Wesley Parish
2017-02-21 1:05 ` Steve Nickolas
2017-02-21 10:30 ` Joerg Schilling
2017-02-21 13:47 ` Random832
2017-02-21 15:18 ` Joerg Schilling
2017-02-21 15:54 ` Diomidis Spinellis
2017-02-21 16:38 ` Cory Smelosky
2017-02-21 16:48 ` Joerg Schilling
2017-02-21 16:32 ` Random832
2017-02-21 16:55 ` Joerg Schilling
2017-02-21 17:10 ` Dan Cross
2017-02-21 19:44 ` Joerg Schilling
2017-02-21 21:17 ` Dan Cross
2017-02-21 21:37 ` Larry McVoy
2017-02-22 8:57 ` jsteve
2017-02-22 9:56 ` Michael Kjörling
2017-02-22 10:26 ` jsteve
2017-02-22 10:29 ` Joerg Schilling
2017-02-19 21:19 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-20 0:29 ` Nick Downing
2017-02-20 1:58 ` Clem Cole
2017-02-20 1:29 ` Cory Smelosky
2017-02-19 22:59 ` Derek Fawcus
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