From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 20293 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2022 21:09:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 Oct 2022 21:09:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62D440CA7; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 07:09:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oo1-f43.google.com (mail-oo1-f43.google.com [209.85.161.43]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7C09409C6 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 07:09:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oo1-f43.google.com with SMTP id r11-20020a4aa2cb000000b004806f49e27eso4838478ool.7 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 14:09:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=xsd4IXpw4cq7YAVbVT2cXOure0uDY//cWDlTVw4ip50=; b=GGUYBnhhwBeIJrj5jTccwTMYZBuf9TGXTFs6ogJ+cH4d7rI1+BViVmwWMwT6apzwbz 5O58MTC0WzBiO8Gt2qGjiLeSGlawbaOM2NwzdkCtxKCRyFR2gDmV+BQjEJyvyIyZs30b 4kXQwi2qT0wEXwf9DQygPO/kJ4kn1EPmUDp7q4L9fruKigwYbiWKoQSqa3kKE5UV5pDw vi2wvG5TLWLm/+QoT/Rg0fjj+SlmaCl550ruV5Qbyp2o+aAX2X06MAD69qmpPOJ4H3h6 YhtsIUgDif0X3xrVG9UPngd8tp4VMlHm61F4qp3ZQVSLn5D59t8Umilrp/A6wjXlYJL5 xDrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=xsd4IXpw4cq7YAVbVT2cXOure0uDY//cWDlTVw4ip50=; b=kD+3Kg8kLFoDOYtNG+MMyaiwwn/jy+46RXi9qR7d1hhyRQ3GmXuudgVqq4juW+gJtb 1VVDsuYqlSTRhP9Bv9QMNeHdyfPEFYQ6Ydcv43vpUi8dFTsO3o7AG4QREJDuRKHVeH94 YccXu85PX1qV45AtlT3S97Gpe9zOuVWYD9CECI+LmU9btriF2i3HEQ991hXUbi67KSXl 7AhCI4lV5JaTSlXMWOAtoQ8HqC07XbCXFJlLO2OL8qPz6k+fbHmFA5g40DhS0wnQpY+j tcbujQS+dUYfRnvT0C6lhalxTfKQLHNTrCeSQEA5nR4M6arnYa1QFBq9aT2Xd65rYqg8 T3Pw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3t5MJbHaGr9yXIz9wE2veMmtc/HFnljuHufEfqHgI6ADopw1Qo 8GXwzhvZjKdQSu9CdP+wqyG1Tn52hHzJdXqfllkrfY9Z X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM49rxxKIZR+Vw4WKSlg6O4cTO1gylThKLWmd7rrAXFQn7nRbBvPLSn1Z81cO0WMsBaEDsYFgu6R3ZXkJvkhi/M= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:3115:b0:658:ea61:249c with SMTP id b21-20020a056830311500b00658ea61249cmr11935631ots.225.1665522480115; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 14:08:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <992562BA-E21F-4542-A50B-6CFE8F7ACE86@planet.nl> <20221011134842.GA11780@mcvoy.com> <20221011195447.GI11780@mcvoy.com> <8583490b-c7cc-4633-b506-2f16335fd3e2@home.arpa> In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 17:07:24 -0400 Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000caf5b205eac8ab0e" Message-ID-Hash: ARII4MGLEI6UXHH2RPHJBD4VROH7ISDK X-Message-ID-Hash: ARII4MGLEI6UXHH2RPHJBD4VROH7ISDK X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: =?UTF-8?Q?Michael_Kj=C3=B6rling?= , tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Re.: Princeton's "Unix: An Oral History": who was in the team in "The Attic"? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000caf5b205eac8ab0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 4:09 PM Rob Pike wrote: > I think it is (used to be?) a common pattern. > > Tom Cargill took a year off from Bell Labs Research to work in > development. He joined a group where every subsystem's code was printed i= n > a separate binder and stored on a shelf in each office. Tom discovered th= at > one of those subsystems was almost completely redundant, as most its > services were implemented elsewhere. So he spent a few months making it > completely redundant. He deleted 15,000 lines of code. When he was done, = he > removed an entire binder from everybody's shelf. His coworkers loved it. > > During his performance review, he learned that management had a metric fo= r > productivity: lines of code. Tom had negative productivity. In fact, > because he was so successful, his entire group had negative productivity. > He returned to Research with his tail between his legs. > Was this vignette in, "The Practice of Programming"? I know I've read it somewhere before, either there, or in the first edition of "Programming Pearls." In the latter, Bentley makes a quip about incentives and lives of code. Basically, if one incentivizes repetitive code, that's one what gets; "if you pay by the line of code, how do you think an array with 500 elements gets initialized?" - Dan C. On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 7:03 AM Michael Kj=C3=B6rling > wrote: > >> On 11 Oct 2022 12:54 -0700, from lm@mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy): >> > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 03:43:19PM -0400, Marc Donner wrote: >> >> So, come annual review time he gets the most negative possible score. >> >> Why? Because he produced -480K lines of code. >> > >> > Whoever wrote that review should have been fired. Absolutely no clue. >> >> Isn't it relatively well established, though, that IBM culture at >> least for a very long time put heavy emphasis on counting lines of >> source code, and that more SLOC was considered to be better? >> >> I definitely recall it being mentioned in _Triumph of the nerds_ as a >> major issue between IBM and Microsoft during development of OS/2. >> >> -- >> Michael Kj=C3=B6rling >> https://michael.kjorling.se >> =E2=80=9CRemember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a = dog?=E2=80=9D >> >> --000000000000caf5b205eac8ab0e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 4:09 PM Rob Pike = <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
I t= hink it is (used to be?) a common pattern.

Tom = Cargill took a year off from Bell Labs Research to work in development. He = joined a group where every subsystem's code was printed in a separate b= inder and stored on a shelf in each office. Tom discovered that one of thos= e subsystems was almost completely redundant, as most its services were imp= lemented elsewhere. So he spent a few months making it completely redundant= . He deleted 15,000 lines of code. When he was done, he removed an entire b= inder from everybody's shelf. His coworkers loved it.

During his= performance review, he learned that management had a metric for productivi= ty: lines of code. Tom had negative productivity. In fact, because he was s= o successful, his entire group had negative productivity. He returned to Re= search with his tail between his legs.
Was this vignette=C2=A0in, "The Practice of Programming&qu= ot;? I know I've read it somewhere before, either there, or in the firs= t edition of "Programming Pearls."

In th= e latter, Bentley makes a quip about incentives and lives of code. Basicall= y, if one incentivizes repetitive code, that's one what gets; "if = you pay by the line of code, how do you think an array with 500 elements ge= ts initialized?"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = - Dan C.

On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 7:03 A= M Michael Kj=C3=B6rling <e5655f= 30a07f@ewoof.net= > wrote:
On 11 Oct 2022 12:54 -0700, from lm@mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy):=
> On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 03:43:19PM -0400, Marc Donner wrote:
>> So, come annual review time he gets the most negative possible sco= re.
>> Why?=C2=A0 Because he produced -480K lines of code.
>
> Whoever wrote that review should have been fired.=C2=A0 Absolutely no = clue.

Isn't it relatively well established, though, that IBM culture at
least for a very long time put heavy emphasis on counting lines of
source code, and that more SLOC was considered to be better?

I definitely recall it being mentioned in _Triumph of the nerds_ as a
major issue between IBM and Microsoft during development of OS/2.

--
Michael Kj=C3=B6rling
=C2=A0https://michael.kjorling.se
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CRemember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were = a dog?=E2=80=9D

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