From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 5736404f for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 14:26:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4165294FCC; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 00:26:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 357BB94FB8; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 00:25:37 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="AKTNmU3t"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A28F594FB8; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 00:25:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f181.google.com (mail-qt1-f181.google.com [209.85.160.181]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D10D994FB7 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 00:25:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f181.google.com with SMTP id e5so7250657qtr.12 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 06:25:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tF0UY7xKmZxaqvjHpcQcQhPDDTJPxXbTahj2AiijoSE=; b=AKTNmU3tvAEQrz0yg0N5ou2QvYncIwZhrMtRiWJPOPBtoc/HMjf+XVUCK3Wi65f7co sTZeg6AjHwWhQ+zs3TVPW6QwvAgMuiiWkFSF4pVKj9K2zeokccv88O1m9sW3EWnZJhjV X/yGK/RyJuyBypcOgvFoNhAweA/MUK/bHDcfkXtItAEMgzrsjzufXdepWd180acOYKWv Ao1sZr9/GRPlg28B862jaMHLJxIAUoCZESG+rUXosFZhVZhLoylZYnPhCmuEsqoDUlXp 8k6RwU4egEINYAvH3vs4ojJ6wHmkBZLLb8kTRCYA+J4CB6Km03jRIbqjqegJqgPffPVM 2dkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tF0UY7xKmZxaqvjHpcQcQhPDDTJPxXbTahj2AiijoSE=; b=Los6WqfulchlZMKP8pO5lrPanzSItzqwgA1AMeF62qigS0c2MHGJ7EbXmSH0EQggBh Kq32zZXeBNrlP/oRm3aA62rTxMJB+UF2nwNsMgxKNGy39OcO49Lw0WQn/JJb3zPNM28u /yQ2mgW1G++4DWZCu83J3PkNU4l3eADVKESnsKRSpBZl9eeHm0eEm2emBNkAaj2yYOt+ 5aZ+NizWZwZqS+Xx+y6YQISyGXFZvvEwhG7Zk+j2+Gp2JEtq4WjBxcUPvHG1DwcSc+15 ceXhqmYJ3vawwVUveG9/MD0rDNTqbqefX25pQIAkanNbsT6+ut2ljV7s7+FtOSs5ljun gARw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukc8IT4KHF1XwuTaIiIajkah3OtqtSykU0NB9t0N55DwoCcvB6C+ 9Ltnz2LzJcOQwQQFdSfqYTCWMh14H4/wNf5pI8g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN6MMQpmrWcMTs+EhohnZCX77qhs+/QqZCHnLEtR9LX1Ti4hh7ZjstxNpLwHlEisBjrKOke0Jiay7ip04QIqk8c= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:3065:: with SMTP id g34mr7378273qte.136.1547648730773; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 06:25:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 09:24:54 -0500 Message-ID: To: George Michaelson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d5bb28057f940ccb" Subject: Re: [TUHS] The John Snow's of the UNIX family X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000d5bb28057f940ccb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 11:08 PM George Michaelson wrote: > In my opinion, the popularity of a UNIX platform is tightly tied to > the availability of the platform at university. > > If DG was available to tinker on, to run ROFF, to write small programs > for other reasons, to introspect and familiarise yourself with, Then > for those students, it became the logical choice. > > If they ignored the tertiary education market, sold into industry, > they could have established a huge loyal fanbase in E.G. Finance and > Insurance. Or in the decision support systems in Oil. Or shoe makers > inventory control. But if you don't have a cohort of students who > recognize your brand, your flavour of UNIX, and you then face these > students flexing muscles at purchase time, Instead of "lets buy the > upgrade option from DG" you get "why don't we buy Sun, and then get > cheap kids to run it" > > TL;DR DG did not have significant presence in the tertiary education > systems I played in (York, Leeds, UCL, UQ) and by my visibility, > almost any tertiary education facility I have seen. They didn't feed > the beast. > Interesting. When I was in high school in central Pennsylvania and begging, borrowing (and yeah a little stealing) computer time from Penn State systems, there was a CS professor who'd made his bones building something called UREP: Unix RSCS Emulation Program. I can't remember the fellow's name; something "Roberts" maybe. He was known for being somewhat acerbic (he'd call students "stupid" in class, was known to be nasty on USENET, etc) and he wasn't a healthy man. He died of a heart attack when I was in my late teens. Anyway.... What's notable about that, to me, was that he wrote UREP for DG/UX and was known to be fond of Data General machines. This let him talk to the university's mainframe, which was run by the computer center, ran VM, and was the major compute engine on campus at the time outside of specially purchased machines supporting research. There was a Cray somewhere on campus, for example, but that was purchased out of research funds and wasn't generally accessible. It also let Unix machines participate on BITNET, which was a big deal locally at the time (probably because of the close association with mainframes). But this was well before the AViiON series; probably around the time of the Eagle. So maybe just after the "Soul of a New Machine" era in DG's history. Anyway, the point is that they did have a footprint in the academic market. I suspect their lack of success had more to do with them as a company and their foibles in the market than anything else. Like many of the "Route 128" minicomputer companies of the early 70s, I get the impression that they ran themselves into the ground chasing the minicomputer market and missing the shift to microprocessors, workstations and PCs. By the time they could try and turn things around with the storage kit, they were a bit player in the server market. The storage thing only set them apart and kept them afloat long enough to get bought out. - Dan C. (PS: I worked for a startup in NYC in the very late 1990s and early 2000; one of those "dot com" companies [all the stories are true, though in my defense I had no idea just how much drama was happening around me at the time]. We picked up some kind of engineering director guy via some merger with another dot com startup-y sort of thing based in Boston and that guy had come from Data General. Of course, he wanted to move everything to Boston/Cambridge and thought us New Yorkers were a bunch of dullards. It stuck out to me because I don't think I've ever worked with an emptier suit, though I've seen a few that gave him a run for his money.... If DG management was anything like him, no wonder they died an inglorious death.) --000000000000d5bb28057f940ccb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 11:08 PM George M= ichaelson <ggm@algebras.org> = wrote:
In my opinion, the popularity of a UNIX platform is tight= ly tied to
the availability of the platform at university.

If DG was available to tinker on, to run ROFF, to write small programs
for other reasons, to introspect and familiarise yourself with, Then
for those students, it became the logical choice.

If they ignored the tertiary education market, sold into industry,
they could have established a huge loyal fanbase in E.G. Finance and
Insurance. Or in the decision support systems in Oil. Or shoe makers
inventory control. But if you don't have a cohort of students who
recognize your brand, your flavour of UNIX, and you then face these
students flexing muscles at purchase time, Instead of "lets buy the upgrade option from DG" you get "why don't we buy Sun, and th= en get
cheap kids to run it"

TL;DR DG did not have significant presence in the tertiary education
systems I played in (York, Leeds, UCL, UQ) and by my visibility,
almost any tertiary education facility I have seen. They didn't feed the beast.

Interesting. When I was in h= igh school in central Pennsylvania and begging, borrowing (and yeah a littl= e stealing) computer time from Penn State systems, there was a CS professor= who'd made his bones building something called UREP: Unix RSCS Emulati= on Program. I can't remember the fellow's name; something "Rob= erts" maybe. He was known for being somewhat acerbic (he'd call st= udents "stupid" in class, was known to be nasty on USENET, etc) a= nd he wasn't a healthy man. He died of a heart attack when I was in my = late teens. Anyway....

What's notable about th= at, to me, was that he wrote UREP for DG/UX and was known to be fond of Dat= a General machines. This let him talk to the university's mainframe, wh= ich was run by the computer center, ran VM, and was the major compute engin= e on campus at the time outside of specially purchased machines supporting = research. There was a Cray somewhere on campus, for example, but that was p= urchased out of research funds and wasn't generally accessible. It also= let Unix machines participate on BITNET, which was a big deal locally at t= he time (probably because of the close association with mainframes). But th= is was well before the AViiON series; probably around the time of the Eagle= . So maybe just after the "Soul of a New Machine" era in DG's= history.

Anyway, the point is that they did have = a footprint in the academic market. I suspect their lack of success had mor= e to do with them as a company and their foibles in the market than anythin= g else. Like many of the "Route 128" minicomputer companies of th= e early 70s, I get the impression that they ran themselves into the ground = chasing the minicomputer market and missing the shift to microprocessors, w= orkstations and PCs. By the time they could try and turn things around with= the storage kit, they were a bit player in the server market. The storage = thing only set them apart and kept them afloat long enough to get bought ou= t.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.
=
(PS: I worked for a startup in NYC in the very late 1990s an= d early 2000; one of those "dot com" companies [all the stories a= re true, though in my defense I had no idea just how much drama was happeni= ng around me at the time]. We picked up some kind of engineering director g= uy via some merger with another dot com startup-y sort of thing based in Bo= ston and that guy had come from Data General. Of course, he wanted to move = everything to Boston/Cambridge and thought us New Yorkers were a bunch of d= ullards. It stuck out to me because I don't think I've ever worked = with an emptier suit, though I've seen a few that gave him a run for hi= s money.... If DG management was anything like him, no wonder they died an = inglorious death.)
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