From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 21a248c4 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:18:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8D9DF9BBCE; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 11:18:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E80D9B4F3; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 11:17:52 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="Qd3G9thg"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 421AA9B4F3; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 11:17:52 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f178.google.com (mail-qt1-f178.google.com [209.85.160.178]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B71779B4F2 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 11:17:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f178.google.com with SMTP id i4so19809325qtj.8 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 18:17:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2s2wQnUnWourdZRuhrJioGcclzpOQGGx8QGXFnlKIks=; b=Qd3G9thgXcFZqriyfK9VgOKIjI9IhkZ22Kn0IXVO7VCr2PKngNdiavfHthjGrsOLKP vZ0NS5rh9jJ9qQ4M8GgVoWsz+nbPRNXhLXDPYtkiXQEglS9qptV3bfkO9HEvF2Bbi8zT ExT8JHZ7ocJHurbDjRnOizex+jV0PAGHd+9ZyxMF4d9aOPVhodd3ZJjGsPiZtHYmNuxI jCFMYvc9yp9yjqJ5HD4wc8znhX93vewgde7Batesuij7KoApv0WeedX8pImGwpbswhqf VJi3NLMnTslB1VKJkqU9YNO+bXrc4fndLdx1aFOBPAb38bUisfWI6jgx+ZUrRhIyqpIF ACSw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2s2wQnUnWourdZRuhrJioGcclzpOQGGx8QGXFnlKIks=; b=VqPkvXgqJqJLV51gcVNlcDd2G7Xh9BZxf5OXyFGT+F4c5TmKqy/WLE0OCRsJ2e7+sd 1lwO0WBTCKfq63Vvx0edhAfyhcqX6mhQnTr2HGbVWwtExo23scVUy3eGu2rgV9o8HlpG AiDI3/SA8RtAB9AA1I1+0CNOKMr5Lz481CgOLDb05G4KjCZu09fb3HOHnC6zN4+1Btov vQCTo67hXwV8mDPTvp52135et7wMMTdzuE0s2VkR/KvLKnN3r5D3ZtL/OX+P7dgI+2gN pTbNE3izSMrZxUpTsLGRgZIVPwc/RpTEBtZ4g1E09q+08Aud4LTBJ/jpuTN2oA+y72H2 2clA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXOW9jg8WWYFK+FDXmJv95dfuvKeHVGSRwD9fAs3hk9liyan1G3 n1jfH7KfttAIWZSFzc0QaAE7QjGpD/Gr6WPfhfjvaQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzJGZTLd4GRr9Fs09EVEphHlU2k1CKDSB/J8CtN1vWnbGPx76w2w2kJHqkU1q+vk2mHa1P2EEzFGsEZuweWDQc= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:c207:: with SMTP id l7mr18416794qvh.40.1566868670708; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 18:17:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <13c5c36e-c84d-e020-d09e-51c8c502dc6d@kilonet.net> In-Reply-To: <13c5c36e-c84d-e020-d09e-51c8c502dc6d@kilonet.net> From: Dan Cross Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 21:17:38 -0400 Message-ID: To: Arthur Krewat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000087022305910f0a80" Subject: Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000087022305910f0a80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 7:14 PM Arthur Krewat wrote: > > https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/08/26/0051234/celebrating-the-28th-anniversary-of-the-linux-kernel > > Leaving licensing and copyright issues out of this mental exercise, what > would we have now if it wasn't for Linux? Not what you'd WANT it to be, > although that can add to the discussion, but what WOULD it be? > > I'm not asking as a proponent of Linux. If anything, I was dragged > kicking and screaming into the current day and have begrudgingly ceded > my server space to Linux. > > But if not for Linux, would it be BSD? A System V variant? Or (the > horror) Windows NT? > > I do understand that this has been discussed on the list before. I > think, however, it would make a good late-summer exercise. Or late > winter depending on where you are :) > This is an interesting question, though of course impossible to actually answer in a meaningful way, as hypotheticals always are. But assuming one could hold all else constant and just erase Linux from the picture, it seems pretty obvious that some kind of BSD variant would have been "it." I think a more interesting question, however, might be: had Linux not happened, would that have opened the space for serious consideration of alternative system architectures, either along Unix derivative lines, or completely different? For example, perhaps something like plan 9 would have had greater penetration into the market. I saw a talk a couple of months ago that attributed the diversity of systems in the 60s and 70s to the idea that people were trying so many different things because no one knew _how_ to build systems. That may be at least partially true, but I was wondering thinking about that very thing this morning and realized that we're certainly swirling around the toilet bowl converging on some central set of things we think work pretty well (files! processes! threads!). But as time marches on and we see the environment changing around us, we don't often go back and revisit these sorts of fundamental assumptions. More's the shame, I'm afraid. One wonders what's next. People now talk about Linux with the sort of reverent tones they once discussed Windows and before that the mainframe. Too big to fail, the Last System, etc. But there are cracks there: Fuchsia is a different architecture, because that Unix model isn't going to accommodate all contemporary use cases: the security model seems to be a big driver here. Will they succeed? It'll be at least interesting to watch and see. - Dan C. --00000000000087022305910f0a80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 7:14 PM Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> wrote:
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/08/= 26/0051234/celebrating-the-28th-anniversary-of-the-linux-kernel

Leaving licensing and copyright issues out of this mental exercise, what would we have now if it wasn't for Linux? Not what you'd WANT it to= be,
although that can add to the discussion, but what WOULD it be?

I'm not asking as a proponent of Linux. If anything, I was dragged
kicking and screaming into the current day and have begrudgingly ceded
my server space to Linux.

But if not for Linux, would it be BSD? A System V variant? Or (the
horror) Windows NT?

I do understand that this has been discussed on the list before. I
think, however, it would make a good late-summer exercise. Or late
winter depending on where you are :)

This is an interesting question, thou= gh of course impossible to actually answer in a meaningful way, as hypothet= icals always are. But assuming one could hold all else constant and just er= ase Linux from the picture, it seems pretty obvious that some kind of BSD v= ariant would have been "it."

I think a more interesting question, however, might be: had = Linux not happened, would that have opened the space for serious considerat= ion of alternative system architectures, either along Unix derivative lines= , or completely different? For example, perhaps something like plan 9 would= have had greater penetration into the market.

<= /div>
I saw a talk a couple of months ago that attributed = the diversity of systems in the 60s and 70s to the idea that people were tr= ying so many different things because no one knew _how_ to build systems. T= hat may be at least partially true, but I was wondering thinking about that= very thing this morning and realized that we're certainly swirling aro= und the toilet bowl converging on some central set of things we think work = pretty well (files! processes! threads!). But as time marches on and we see= the environment changing around us, we don't often go back and revisit= these sorts of fundamental assumptions. More's the shame, I'm afra= id.

One wonders what'= ;s next. People now talk about Linux with the sort of reverent tones they o= nce discussed Windows and before that the mainframe. Too big to fail, the L= ast System, etc. But there are cracks there: Fuchsia is a different archite= cture, because that Unix model isn't going to accommodate all contempor= ary use cases: the security model seems to be a big driver here. Will they = succeed? It'll be at least interesting to watch and see.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.<= /div>

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