From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 1f3c17f4 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 14:59:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 58B8D94FC1; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 00:59:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BDE94FB9; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 00:58:46 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="RXQbA/pf"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0BD3C94FB9; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 00:58:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f180.google.com (mail-qk1-f180.google.com [209.85.222.180]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F60794FB7 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 00:58:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f180.google.com with SMTP id q8so3930527qke.1 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 06:58:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=N36W976n/3a/IgUwKVEi90W0cmV7Gjxd4rcrvXK000A=; b=RXQbA/pfsI9ps37QCWN2x6XtxRZ7RbHcummrYL8fk2pzdtNFF5WvjqmKxB2ECKV3Io EGUaQR1laIIDkDrlaZ83RGE5Q+ChjeJ4DcgUA2UXWhuY7hPga06wJ/o4r/sosFDWReCF EAbqZISs2b3fsluFXCkujIuap3DqDm7cSruXzVMKzZtn+4G+GWVNytUYAKtCfBTtbSup v40a4iDl7KbjFoBcOhYF5BFIdWNgOGLmvHstLgZ/W4e/5nbyph8I0sakMvnUA6Q9pk8v nAagrw64w9FDiQraNVyyU4LmjZJNXcdn0y6TvivBzKne84alb/MLPt+F/IKXj0j8TB7I ts/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=N36W976n/3a/IgUwKVEi90W0cmV7Gjxd4rcrvXK000A=; b=VBStMbZCB2SMsIt5RHB30FL+6Z+qZcLSGmL18b2XJ7K2tECpeQ/U8yKX70MIbEz66/ tqDGvN+SyfBRAOoCp5kqBTz7EU5AwtfatPZljbg/V8tyQ6TVlgq8azuH0lHJttHnKDEF lwvEcO5ZYlKlvyr3jFcm8KfuhuOsmOrLhrfRY1KlM+OXkKPrZWFJ53zoL1ueTTMnP6c7 +cw5A8zXUKt8Lr/4tD92LGpI56LqCjRCxU6BOS4wRwiI+RAlfZ16vo/e6gyXIXkocK8I HD/E9TAgFFzrFFryRlqVXK4aqIMS37FJO1PuGY9TlDg+eGOdjHzQHv6ZC6QAKsx5qjm2 jdxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukdPX25jHR1/ebfX7hM0j2ZT+IR285slnaaR0U+C5Bi+zYtm3iIC JkAMRqoyaml9UjsLPHKkGAGrOSCfsWhq9DMl+B/AImYj X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN40uECTQYiGajIlZBEQW31wna0fiC7ZDkI7u3bu9j9YD4yOAxpGL7herIwqiug+xoxD/rLQWaWTeXUsRyT1I8Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:136e:: with SMTP id d14mr6535214qkl.344.1547650723974; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 06:58:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 09:58:08 -0500 Message-ID: To: Kevin Bowling Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a39507057f948349" Subject: Re: [TUHS] The John Snow's of the UNIX family X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000a39507057f948349 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From what I've heard, "Technical arrogance" and "Cutler" in the same paragraph is redundant. :-) I work with a bunch of former Microsofties, most of whom were in the Windows kernel group. None of them have nice things to say about him. They acknowledged that Gates could be an insensitive jerk, but at least there was a method behind his madness (he'd be trying to get the the bottom of something he wanted to understand and he wanted to be sure other people understood it too, for example). Cutler on the other hand was just cruel. One guy said his mother was visiting and was standing in the lobby of a Microsoft building while Cutler berated someone for some minor fault. "She learned new words and phrases she hadn't known could exist." Ironically, despite being totally unwilling to move to Boston in 2000, I find myself in exile here in the outer provinces of Massachusetts now. It's kind of amazing to see how many survivors of the minicomputer heydays seem to be waiting for DEC, Data General, etc, to rise from the ashes and take over the datacenter again. "Lisp Machines will rise again!" - Dan C. On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 9:40 AM Kevin Bowling wrote: > I=E2=80=99ve heard and personally seen a lot of technical arrogance and > incompetence out of the Masshole area. Was DEC inflicted? In > =E2=80=9CShowstopper=E2=80=9D Cutler fled to the west coast to get away f= rom this kind of > thing. > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 2:26 PM Dan Cross wrote: > >> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 11:08 PM George Michaelson >> wrote: >> >>> In my opinion, the popularity of a UNIX platform is tightly tied to >>> the availability of the platform at university. >>> >>> If DG was available to tinker on, to run ROFF, to write small programs >>> for other reasons, to introspect and familiarise yourself with, Then >>> for those students, it became the logical choice. >>> >>> If they ignored the tertiary education market, sold into industry, >>> they could have established a huge loyal fanbase in E.G. Finance and >>> Insurance. Or in the decision support systems in Oil. Or shoe makers >>> inventory control. But if you don't have a cohort of students who >>> recognize your brand, your flavour of UNIX, and you then face these >>> students flexing muscles at purchase time, Instead of "lets buy the >>> upgrade option from DG" you get "why don't we buy Sun, and then get >>> cheap kids to run it" >>> >>> TL;DR DG did not have significant presence in the tertiary education >>> systems I played in (York, Leeds, UCL, UQ) and by my visibility, >>> almost any tertiary education facility I have seen. They didn't feed >>> the beast. >>> >> >> Interesting. When I was in high school in central Pennsylvania and >> begging, borrowing (and yeah a little stealing) computer time from Penn >> State systems, there was a CS professor who'd made his bones building >> something called UREP: Unix RSCS Emulation Program. I can't remember the >> fellow's name; something "Roberts" maybe. He was known for being somewha= t >> acerbic (he'd call students "stupid" in class, was known to be nasty on >> USENET, etc) and he wasn't a healthy man. He died of a heart attack when= I >> was in my late teens. Anyway.... >> >> What's notable about that, to me, was that he wrote UREP for DG/UX and >> was known to be fond of Data General machines. This let him talk to the >> university's mainframe, which was run by the computer center, ran VM, an= d >> was the major compute engine on campus at the time outside of specially >> purchased machines supporting research. There was a Cray somewhere on >> campus, for example, but that was purchased out of research funds and >> wasn't generally accessible. It also let Unix machines participate on >> BITNET, which was a big deal locally at the time (probably because of th= e >> close association with mainframes). But this was well before the AViiON >> series; probably around the time of the Eagle. So maybe just after the >> "Soul of a New Machine" era in DG's history. >> >> Anyway, the point is that they did have a footprint in the academic >> market. I suspect their lack of success had more to do with them as a >> company and their foibles in the market than anything else. Like many of >> the "Route 128" minicomputer companies of the early 70s, I get the >> impression that they ran themselves into the ground chasing the >> minicomputer market and missing the shift to microprocessors, workstatio= ns >> and PCs. By the time they could try and turn things around with the stor= age >> kit, they were a bit player in the server market. The storage thing only >> set them apart and kept them afloat long enough to get bought out. >> >> - Dan C. >> >> (PS: I worked for a startup in NYC in the very late 1990s and early 2000= ; >> one of those "dot com" companies [all the stories are true, though in my >> defense I had no idea just how much drama was happening around me at the >> time]. We picked up some kind of engineering director guy via some merge= r >> with another dot com startup-y sort of thing based in Boston and that gu= y >> had come from Data General. Of course, he wanted to move everything to >> Boston/Cambridge and thought us New Yorkers were a bunch of dullards. It >> stuck out to me because I don't think I've ever worked with an emptier >> suit, though I've seen a few that gave him a run for his money.... If DG >> management was anything like him, no wonder they died an inglorious deat= h.) >> > --000000000000a39507057f948349 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From what I've heard, "Technical arrogance" = and "Cutler" in the same paragraph is redundant. :-)

I work with a bunch of former Microsofties, most of whom were in the= Windows kernel group. None of them have nice things to say about him. They= acknowledged that Gates could be an insensitive jerk, but at least there w= as a method behind his madness (he'd be trying to get the the bottom of= something he wanted to understand and he wanted to be sure other people un= derstood it too, for example). Cutler on the other hand was just cruel. One= guy said his mother was visiting and was standing in the lobby of a Micros= oft building while Cutler berated someone for some minor fault. "She l= earned new words and phrases she hadn't known could exist."
<= div>
Ironically, despite being totally unwilling to move to B= oston in 2000, I find myself in exile here in the outer provinces of Massac= husetts now. It's kind of amazing to see how many survivors of the mini= computer heydays seem to be waiting for DEC, Data General, etc, to rise fro= m the ashes and take over the datacenter again. "Lisp Machines will ri= se again!"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan = C.


On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 9:40 AM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote:
I=E2=80= =99ve heard and personally seen a lot of technical arrogance and incompeten= ce out of the Masshole area.=C2=A0 Was DEC inflicted?=C2=A0 In =E2=80=9CSho= wstopper=E2=80=9D Cutler fled to the west coast to get away from this kind = of thing.

O= n Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 2:26 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 11:08 PM George Michaelson &l= t;ggm@algebras.org> wrote:
In my opinion, the popularity of a UNIX platfor= m is tightly tied to
the availability of the platform at university.

If DG was available to tinker on, to run ROFF, to write small programs
for other reasons, to introspect and familiarise yourself with, Then
for those students, it became the logical choice.

If they ignored the tertiary education market, sold into industry,
they could have established a huge loyal fanbase in E.G. Finance and
Insurance. Or in the decision support systems in Oil. Or shoe makers
inventory control. But if you don't have a cohort of students who
recognize your brand, your flavour of UNIX, and you then face these
students flexing muscles at purchase time, Instead of "lets buy the upgrade option from DG" you get "why don't we buy Sun, and th= en get
cheap kids to run it"

TL;DR DG did not have significant presence in the tertiary education
systems I played in (York, Leeds, UCL, UQ) and by my visibility,
almost any tertiary education facility I have seen. They didn't feed the beast.

Interesting. When I was in high school in centr= al Pennsylvania and begging, borrowing (and yeah a little stealing) compute= r time from Penn State systems, there was a CS professor who'd made his= bones building something called UREP: Unix RSCS Emulation Program. I can&#= 39;t remember the fellow's name; something "Roberts" maybe. H= e was known for being somewhat acerbic (he'd call students "stupid= " in class, was known to be nasty on USENET, etc) and he wasn't a = healthy man. He died of a heart attack when I was in my late teens. Anyway.= ...

What's notable about that, to me, was that= he wrote UREP for DG/UX and was known to be fond of Data General machines.= This let him talk to the university's mainframe, which was run by the = computer center, ran VM, and was the major compute engine on campus at the = time outside of specially purchased machines supporting research. There was= a Cray somewhere on campus, for example, but that was purchased out of res= earch funds and wasn't generally accessible. It also let Unix machines = participate on BITNET, which was a big deal locally at the time (probably b= ecause of the close association with mainframes). But this was well before = the AViiON series; probably around the time of the Eagle. So maybe just aft= er the "Soul of a New Machine" era in DG's history.

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