From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29629 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2020 16:44:37 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Aug 2020 16:44:37 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id F0CC29C9FB; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 02:44:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D2B9C9E3; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 02:43:46 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="q+CXCSCZ"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DA2849C9E3; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 02:43:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f169.google.com (mail-qt1-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4146993DFC for ; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 02:43:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f169.google.com with SMTP id o22so25108507qtt.13 for ; Sat, 01 Aug 2020 09:43:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8bF6RaEP3np5gehhMNy4B7SLBkgMYMNQQkCBWex35hg=; b=q+CXCSCZeaS8T17Ezex2wJPYZJYhG7tFXKqgNWUfEJ29s6SXZV0mc/eXjYexzRm967 SOiJ35d2G1C3M53/L/xbAa+4LVwUcRVnqR8EI1yLQQ6iTG6jTojxNOosaGt3htNvMkp8 lII+oW3J4RMhRQebcZsuCdmBsyZfeH8eE+eHSuIECSvOEU1FPAMYOHSlzc6o8sHt46B0 7dnGrlHW+AQdu87TDEELHEUKsf7IQ4hfMroTC4+Z2b2HKI5SkbkP5B382WSXwkGTzOV9 nbFkKr+/yR65PQM+6cxTLx2jkOGO5MNEQRIouWV0xajXGjFKMTg2uAfbKxsi9dxkHtx6 sFgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8bF6RaEP3np5gehhMNy4B7SLBkgMYMNQQkCBWex35hg=; b=AruiDtCQG6o09xC2tSc/H0WGYu+zs41JKKa3dq8RSfHoiDvP32nEzOzitffyJmSfqw VVfQEoNrnlTcBbGZKS0BnMQ8+05sA5dGkAnGc7+2lJrr0y9b5es7H6nBum/IemmU7z2f qIkV59lk4nvNstyhlPajVHRnnypofJeXPJu4E7Khn+eT2daEjo+D+MGiSBpbT/7Rm9a8 Ato7ZHAOM0l+IYiObdSswpOQfo2JohS4WurXABESKwTkp9SnfJtXxMg754O8wyr27SMy vos6NG0E9+iaJht1d56vqP6V0nSdwMOemuTAaGH0BrZ4VgumLfnaZr4rsLUsDOfSnUfv t1pw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531gnQlUUrMeNqonnyRZkhNGrvV9WzKrWMsFOG7eWrJalsXj5FTI z3+3WuS9WefozGl9UidYgjcwYdFboePwGHe3XR0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy5rP1EwYbVv68kD+o8WxHP4C7oQcYbwNo0ZJ8F0MsqjTwUjnmvhMPOv5AREu9aibuCDNzKcFHjkCjhu2u5GVc= X-Received: by 2002:aed:31a3:: with SMTP id 32mr9009994qth.46.1596300222265; Sat, 01 Aug 2020 09:43:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202007310003.06V03OoV073870@chez.mckusick.com> <1k1lj2-7nP-00@marmaro.de> <20200801141310.GQ10778@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 12:43:06 -0400 Message-ID: To: "John P. Linderman" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b3ff1405abd39bb6" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Dennis Ritchie's Dissertation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Unix Heritage Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000b3ff1405abd39bb6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 11:09 AM John P. Linderman wrote: > The use of honorifics was subtly discouraged at the Labs. I never saw a > policy statement, but nobody I knew used "Dr" (except those in the medical > department), even though the place was crawling with doctoral degrees. > My officemate has a PhD and told me a funny story. Someone (not him) from his program graduated and shortly thereafter flew somewhere. Realizing that they could put "Dr" as an honorific when booking their flight, this person did so. Shortly after take-off, a flight attendant approached the newly-minted PhD and said something along the lines of, "Uh, Doctor? We have a passenger we think may be having a heart attack..." This person had to quickly explain that they were not "that kind of doctor" but rather "the other kind." The nonplussed flight attendant advised this person not to use "Dr" as a title when booking future flights. As an aside, I have a close friend who is a medical doctor and she's been on _five_ separate flights where the flight attendants have asked for medical assistance from qualified passengers: usually it's a heart-attack or an allergic reaction. As a result, she now prescribes herself an epi pen and keeps it in her bag. I think there are times when titles are contextually appropriate: perhaps on the byline of a paper, in accordance with the editorial guidelines of a publication or conference proceedings or something, or perhaps when teaching a class in an academic setting. Occasionally I teach a session of a graduate course somewhere or another; less occasionally I get emails from students who attended the lecture. I always find it flattering and amusing when they variously refer to me as "Dr" or "Prof": I am neither, though I understand that in academic settings that's simply the norm. About half of the people in the immediate vicinity of my office have PhDs. When my kids have come to visit, I try to use titles and last names. Sometimes this gets them confused, "why did I have to call that person Dr So-and-so but you call her Lucy?" "Because you're six and I'm her colleague." But otherwise everyone is on a first-name basis; if a PhD tried to assert use of their title outside of some context where it's explicitly relevant, I don't imagine it would go well and that person would likely not remain in their position long due to a cultural mismatch. A particular impedance mismatch is when someone has a PhD in a completely unrelated field: It's not unheard of for someone with a degree in the humanities to work in software. I once briefly met someone who had worked on MVS as a systems programmer, but who had a PhD in study of the Japanese language. I doubt he insisted on being called "Doctor" at work. - Dan C. On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 10:14 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 09:14:36AM +0200, markus schnalke wrote: >> > Hoi. >> > >> > [2020-07-30 20:30] Dan Cross >> > > >> > > I understood from Mike Anshel that he was rather proud of this, [...] >> > >> > I once read that someone is famous when people omit the titles, >> > because they add nothing to the name, but rather would smaller it. >> > A good example is Albert Einstein. Who cares what titles he has. >> > >> > Another is Dennis Ritchie. What does it matter what degrees, titles, >> > whatever he has? -- He's already a genius! >> >> My dad wasn't famous, but he had a PhD in physics. He never asked people >> to call him Dr McVoy. As we grew up and realized he could be called that >> we asked him why not. He said it sounds fancy, the only time he used it >> was when he wanted a table at a crowded restaurant (which was very rare, >> Madison didn't pay him very well). >> >> Somehow that stuck with me and I've always been sort of wary of people >> who use their title. The people I admire never did. >> >> Someone on the list said that they thought Dennis wouldn't appreciate >> it if we got his PhD official. I couldn't put my finger on it at the >> time, but I agreed. And I think it is because the people who are really >> great don't need or want the fancy title. I may be over thinking it, >> but Dennis does not need the title, it does nothing to make his legacy >> better, his legacy is way way more than that title. >> >> Which is a long ramble to say I agree with Markus. >> > --000000000000b3ff1405abd39bb6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 1= 1:09 AM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl@= gmail.com> wrote:
The use of honorifics was subtly discouraged at the Labs. I never = saw a policy statement, but nobody I knew used "Dr" (except those= in the medical department), even though the place was crawling with doctor= al degrees.

My officemate has a= PhD and told me a funny story. Someone (not him) from his program graduate= d and shortly thereafter flew somewhere. Realizing that they could put &quo= t;Dr" as an honorific when booking their flight, this person did so. S= hortly after take-off, a flight attendant=C2=A0approached the newly-minted = PhD and said something along the lines of, "Uh, Doctor? We have a pass= enger=C2=A0we think may be having a heart attack..." This person had t= o quickly explain that they were not "that kind of doctor" but ra= ther "the other kind." The nonplussed flight attendant=C2=A0advis= ed this person not to use "Dr" as a title when booking future fli= ghts. As an aside, I have a close friend who is a medical doctor and she= 9;s been on _five_ separate flights where the flight attendants have asked = for medical assistance from qualified passengers: usually it's a heart-= attack or an allergic reaction. As a result, she now prescribes herself an = epi pen and keeps it in her bag.

I think there are= times when titles are contextually appropriate: perhaps on the byline of a= paper, in accordance with the editorial guidelines of a publication or con= ference proceedings or something, or perhaps when teaching a class in an ac= ademic setting. Occasionally I teach a session of a graduate course somewhe= re or another; less occasionally I get emails from students who attended th= e lecture. I always find it flattering and amusing when they variously refe= r to me as "Dr" or "Prof": I am neither, though I under= stand that in academic settings that's simply the norm.

<= /div>
About half of the people in the immediate vicinity of my office h= ave PhDs. When my kids have come to visit, I try to use titles and last nam= es. Sometimes this gets them confused, "why did=C2=A0I have to call th= at person Dr So-and-so but you call her Lucy?" "Because you'r= e six and I'm her colleague." But otherwise everyone is on a first= -name basis; if a PhD tried to assert use of their title outside of some co= ntext where it's explicitly relevant, I don't imagine it would go w= ell and that person would likely not remain in their position long due to a= cultural mismatch.

A particular impedance mismatc= h is when someone has a PhD in a completely unrelated field: It's not u= nheard of for someone with a degree in the humanities to work in software. = I once briefly met someone who had worked on MVS as a systems programmer, b= ut who had a PhD in study of the Japanese language. I doubt he insisted on = being called "Doctor" at work.

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 10:14 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at = 09:14:36AM +0200, markus schnalke wrote:
> Hoi.
>
> [2020-07-30 20:30] Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com>
> >
> > I understood from Mike Anshel that he was rather proud of this, [= ...]
>
> I once read that someone is famous when people omit the titles,
> because they add nothing to the name, but rather would smaller it.
> A good example is Albert Einstein. Who cares what titles he has.
>
> Another is Dennis Ritchie. What does it matter what degrees, titles, > whatever he has? -- He's already a genius!

My dad wasn't famous, but he had a PhD in physics.=C2=A0 He never asked= people
to call him Dr McVoy.=C2=A0 As we grew up and realized he could be called t= hat
we asked him why not.=C2=A0 He said it sounds fancy, the only time he used = it
was when he wanted a table at a crowded restaurant (which was very rare, Madison didn't pay him very well).

Somehow that stuck with me and I've always been sort of wary of people<= br> who use their title.=C2=A0 The people I admire never did.

Someone on the list said that they thought Dennis wouldn't appreciate it if we got his PhD official.=C2=A0 I couldn't put my finger on it at = the
time, but I agreed.=C2=A0 And I think it is because the people who are real= ly
great don't need or want the fancy title.=C2=A0 I may be over thinking = it,
but Dennis does not need the title, it does nothing to make his legacy
better, his legacy is way way more than that title.

Which is a long ramble to say I agree with Markus.
--000000000000b3ff1405abd39bb6--